Evidence of meeting #34 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was drone.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:35 a.m.
Capt Dan Adamus
I say yes, with the slight distinction that in the case of those being operated for commercial purposes, the operator should have a commercial pilot's licence.
10:35 a.m.
Partner, McInnes Cooper, As an Individual
I am of the view that they should be regulated in the same way, in a way that's proportional to the risk that they present.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Okay, but if we regulate drones based on their use and the risks involved, does that not compromise safety? After all, we want to make sure that drones are safe and we want to avoid disasters.
Who will be able to distinguish between a drone used for commercial purposes and a drone used for recreational purposes?
10:35 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Owners and Pilots Association
From what I see at Transport Canada, the distinction between recreational and commercial use is hard to make. As Mr. Fraser mentioned, the regulations depend on the risk. It is the weight of the device and the type of device that determine the risk that it poses, not the way it is used. It is the device itself that determines the risk.
Someone can use a drone to take pictures, get paid to take them or just take them to admire the landscape. In any case, the device and the risk are the same. It can be the same operator, depending on the day of the week.
So we regulate based on the type of device and the way it is used.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
10:35 a.m.
Capt Dan Adamus
I'll pass on this one.
10:35 a.m.
Partner, McInnes Cooper, As an Individual
The smart thing to do is just to ban recreational use of these vehicles, but the reality is that many of the people who are going to become competent commercial operators are going to start out doing it recreationally.
I think it's a valued activity, but it needs to be coupled with the steps that could be taken to prudently mitigate reasonable risk, while recognizing that no activity is ever going to get down to zero risk.
The distinction between commercial and non-commercial or commercial and recreational right now is subject to a huge number of debates. If somebody pays you later for a photo that you took today, does that make your flight commercial?
We shouldn't be arguing over that. We should be focusing on mitigating the actual risk based on the activity, which has nothing to do with whether or not somebody is being paid.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Earlier, you talked about foolproof technology. What exactly did you mean by that?
10:35 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Owners and Pilots Association
Thanks to sense and avoid technology and radiofrequency, you do not lose the connection with your drone or UAV. It is a bit like most of today's aviation systems and the aircraft that Mr. Adamus is flying. There is a double system, even a triple system, to ensure that the operation of the device is almost 99.99999% foolproof. That is what I mean by foolproof.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
I have one last question for all three of you.
Should UAVs be marked—you answered yes earlier—and be registered with Transport Canada, like all other types of registered vehicles, such as automobiles, motorcycles, aircraft and so on? This would allow Transport Canada to better control the types of drones used in airspace.
Should we add more details? Should we require a compulsory course so that people know how to use a drone? Should we go a little further and require a licence to operate a drone? Should we go that far?
10:35 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Owners and Pilots Association
Yes, we should go further. Training for UAV users should be required to obtain a competency card. Drone registration should also be required.
10:40 a.m.
Capt Dan Adamus
Yes, they should be registered and, yes, there should be a course that the user takes and a certificate issued.
10:40 a.m.
Partner, McInnes Cooper, As an Individual
I think there should be demonstrable user competence, and I think the way you do that is by operators. I think that any drone over coffee-cup size should be registered.
November 22nd, 2016 / 10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
My thanks to the witnesses for their participation today.
At first glance, I wondered whether this matter was really an emergency, but the more I listen to you, the more I realize its importance.
We have talked a lot about air traffic safety. We are also talking about the protection of privacy. I was the mayor of a municipality with 45,000 people. Our discussions have reminded me of a situation in which I had to deal with the city's lawyers. A resident who had security cameras also used them to photograph his neighbour when she was sitting around her swimming pool in a bathing suit. We had to handle that situation.
I clearly remember the clerk of the municipality telling us about the problems that would come with drones and cameras, and the challenge of determining who would assume the responsibility. The people turn to municipalities, but these issues fall under federal jurisdiction.
Many issues will have to be addressed. For instance, we have not really talked about security issues involving terrorists and their potential use of drones. I have not seen the list with all the witnesses who will be appearing, but I suppose we'll be talking to other witnesses.
In navigation, training is provided for water craft used in leisure activities. Every person who wants to drive a motor boat must first fill out a questionnaire on the Internet. Although I have never done so, I imagine that the idea is to educate those people through the various questions and provide them with information so that they can better understand the issues. Naturally, someone might impersonate another person and pass the test, but given the way it's done, we can assume that the majority of people are following this process.
In your opinion, should all drone users be required to undergo that type of training?
10:40 a.m.
Capt Dan Adamus
Yes. The same thing could be implemented for drones for the recreational user.
10:40 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Owners and Pilots Association
The Canadian Owners and Pilots Association also believes that a process similar to that of the pleasure craft operator card should be followed.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC
A fairly quick measure could be implemented as a first step. We could then discuss all the other aspects, including the commercial aspect.
My understanding is that training and requirements are already in place for commercial drone users.
Mr. Adamus, earlier, you talked about some 700 cases in which drones were detected in flight paths with aircraft passing. However, have any accidents or serious cases been recorded?
My question is for all three witnesses.
10:40 a.m.
Capt Dan Adamus
I'm not aware of any actual collisions. There could have been. I am aware of one drone that was a very large one, the size of a 737, which the U.S. Air Force was testing. They lost radio control, and it crashed very close to a neighbourhood. I think it was somewhere in California. That was a number of years ago. I am not aware of any actual collisions with aircraft.
10:40 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Owners and Pilots Association
Members of our association have reported seeing drones on the wings of their aircraft. Those incidents are recorded in civil aviation daily reporting systems at Transport Canada. However, I have not heard of any cases of collisions.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC
My question is for the analysts. Would it be possible to check whether there is a list of collisions at Transport Canada? It could be given to all the members of the committee so that they can see if anything like that has really happened.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
My thanks to the witnesses as well.
