Evidence of meeting #55 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was safety.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Aaron Speer  Vice-President, Flight Operations, Bradley Air Services Limited, First Air
Edward McKeogh  President, Canadian Aviation Safety Consultants
Greg McConnell  National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
Jean-Marie Richard  Aviation Safety Consultant, As an Individual
Dan Adamus  Canada Board President, Air Line Pilots Association, International

12:10 p.m.

President, Canadian Aviation Safety Consultants

Edward McKeogh

On aviation safety lectures, we feel, as I've said before, that doctors, dentists, and stockbrokers have to put in so many hours annually of continuation training to make sure they're up to speed on what's going on in their domain. Well, we know that human factors—attention, attitude, awareness, anticipation, alertness, and alternatives—are not talked about sufficiently in training, whether it be an issue of training at the flying school and all the way up, with the exception of certain of the larger airlines that have in-house people doing this.

We would like to see the regulatory authorities establish rules, directives, concerning how many hours of training a person must attend per year. It can be dispensed at their own location. They can send an instructor to us and we'll teach that instructor, and he'll go back at the most efficient time and place to give those lectures. They include, not just the human factors that I mentioned, but also cockpit resource management; safety management systems; ALAR, approach and landing accident reduction system; and CFIT, controlled flight into terrain. There are a whole host of things that are not sufficiently emphasized out there, and we, within our purview, have the ability to do that.

What I talked about earlier was about general aviation throughout this universe. We can't be looking over everyone's shoulder, but with ICAO here in Montreal, through them, we can talk a lot about the necessity of hands-on flying.

However, this aviation safety lecture business is something that we can control right here, in-house. We can have people from the various organizations send an instructor to us here in Montreal, and we will teach him all of the things I just mentioned. I don't want to repeat them, but they're very important, especially when it comes to crew resource management, for instance.

12:15 p.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Thank you.

12:15 p.m.

President, Canadian Aviation Safety Consultants

Edward McKeogh

Have I answered your question, sir?

12:15 p.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Yes, you answered my question very well. Thank you.

I'd like to put a quick question to Mr. Speer.

Regarding the regional partners who fly in Canada, can you tell me if each of the carriers have implemented a fatigue risk management system? If so, could you explain the implementation process of such a system? If not, please explain how you ensure safety.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Luc Berthold

You have 30 seconds to answer, Mr. Speer.

12:15 p.m.

Capt Aaron Speer

I guess the short answer is yes.

As part of an airline operation, one of the programs we are required to maintain, and we at First Air fully embrace it, is an SMS system. That SMS addresses any operational and financial risk for the company, one of which is fatigue. We manage it through there, through any reporting investigation in dealing with corrective actions and the associated follow-up through the SMS program.

12:15 p.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Thank you.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Luc Berthold

Thank you very much, Mr. Aubin and Mr. Speer.

Since we had agreed to do the first round, I now give the floor to Mr. Iacono and Mr. Hardie.

May 2nd, 2017 / 12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also thank the witnesses for being here today.

I would ask the witnesses to provide brief answers, so that we have the opportunity of asking several questions.

Some witnesses have told us that the rules concerning fatigue management should be different according to the nature of the flight, for instance long international flights as opposed to several short flights which involve several take-offs and landings. In your opinion, would such an ad hoc approach be the best way of doing things?

12:15 p.m.

Capt Aaron Speer

I would argue absolutely, there are different risks associated with long-haul overseas flying as there are with short-haul multiple takeoffs and landings in the day. The fatigue factors I think are very different, so the only way to address fatigue is to address the factor causing it.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you.

Mr. McKeogh, it's your turn.

12:15 p.m.

President, Canadian Aviation Safety Consultants

Edward McKeogh

Could you repeat the question, please? I was studying my notes as you were asking it.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Some witnesses informed us that the current rules concerning fatigue management should differ according to the nature of the flight, for instance long international flights as opposed to several short flights. Should there be different fatigue management systems?

12:15 p.m.

President, Canadian Aviation Safety Consultants

Edward McKeogh

This, sir, is a little outside of our domain.

Certainly we all know about fatigue in the air, and crew rest is necessary. This is why there are three pilots in the aircraft. One is sleeping while the others are flying.

However, it is something that needs to be looked at very carefully. You can get sedentary fatigue too; just sitting there not doing much produces fatigue.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you.

Mr. Speer, what do you think could be done to minimize the effects on the profitability of airlines?

12:15 p.m.

Capt Aaron Speer

Affordability is not really something I address too heavily. My job is to make it safe, so I do what it takes to be safe.

The reality is that we need to look at what is being done to address those issues. If I look at the arguments in the north, the user-pay system does not work there, where we stretch the population of Kingston or Thunder Bay over 70 communities. There needs to be some support from the government in that sense, to provide national infrastructure as part of the mandate and not expect the true cost to be borne by every single individual passenger.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you.

I yield the floor to Mr. Hardie.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Luc Berthold

There are three minutes left if you want to use them.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Lovely.

Mr. McKeogh, the issue has come up before of the actual hands-on assessment of somebody's flying skills versus time spent in a simulator. In the two scenarios that you presented off the top, I think in one of them the airspeed indicators had frozen up, etc. You can't duplicate that, or you wouldn't want to try to duplicate that, up in the air.

What is the proper balance, if you will, between the use of simulators versus the use of actually being up there with an inspector?

12:20 p.m.

President, Canadian Aviation Safety Consultants

Edward McKeogh

Simulators have their place. They are very excellent machines, built by someone we know well in Montreal, CAE, but nothing replaces hands-on doing it. Yes, you can do things with the airplane at altitude. All good pilots know that “P plus P”, power plus position, of the nose will give you a certain airspeed. You don't need an airspeed indicator if you're a good hands-on pilot.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

But creating the kinds of issues you mentioned would be more easily and safely done in a simulator, I would expect.

12:20 p.m.

President, Canadian Aviation Safety Consultants

Edward McKeogh

Yes, but at altitude you can safely do a partial panel, for instance. You can remove certain things from the pilot's view, although they're to be put back immediately. You can ask them to do certain things.

Sure, they're more safely done in a simulator if you're talking about something close to the ground, but at altitude you can disable certain elements that are there in the primary flight display.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Mr. Speer, with regard to the impact of climate change, especially on the runways, are you noticing anything there? I'm thinking of permafrost and shore erosion and all manner of things that might be going on.

12:20 p.m.

Capt Aaron Speer

We are seeing some significant challenges with our runways that I assume are related to factors such as that. A couple of years ago one runway basically washed out for half a month. We lost the middle portion of the runway. There are very significant challenges with the underlying layers that cause breakdown of the runway—sinkholes, ruts, etc.—that were not seen in the past.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Right.

Thank you.