Transport Committee on June 6th, 2017

[The Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)), Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'm calling to order the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, meeting number 63, pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, February 7, 2017, to study water quality.

We have a variety of witnesses here from both the Department of Health and the Office of Infrastructure of Canada, as well as Bob Bratina who moved the motion that was referred to the House.

I will turn it over to the Office of Infrastructure of Canada, please.

[Alain Desruisseaux, Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Office of Infrastructure of Canada]

Good morning. I'm Alain Desruisseaux, acting assistant deputy minister, policy, Infrastructure Canada. I'm here with Laura Di Paolo, who is the director general responsible for program operations and integration.

Thank you for inviting me to speak to you today. I would like to commend the committee for its important work in reviewing this motion.

Access to clean water is key to the overall success of our communities and for the health and safety of future generations of Canadians.

Modern and effective water and waste-water infrastructure provides clean, safe water for our children to drink and ensures that our communities remain healthy and strong.

Canada's water is a precious resource that deserves protection and careful stewardship.

That is why, under most of Infrastructure Canada's current programs, drinking water infrastructure—including replacing or upgrading publicly-owned drinking water transmission pipes—has been an eligible category of investment.

That is also why the Government of Canada introduced a $2-billion clean water and waste-water fund in budget 2016.

This funding is focused on the repair and rehabilitation of existing infrastructure assets and is designed to support municipalities, provinces, and territories in their efforts to modernize and extend the life of their water and waste-water systems.

To advance Canada's efforts to build a clean economy, budget 2017 laid out a plan to invest $21.9 billion in green infrastructure. Of that amount, $9.2 billion will be provided to provinces and territories to support projects that reduce greenhouse gas emissions, deliver clean water, and safely manage waste water, among other projects.

The government will also provide $4 billion from the green and social funding streams for infrastructure in indigenous communities, to build and improve housing, water treatment systems, health facilities and other community infrastructure.

As you know, the vast majority of core public infrastructure in Canada is owned by the provinces, territories, and municipalities.

Each order of government, including the provinces, territories, and municipalities, has an important role to play with respect to the protection of water in Canada.

Local decision-makers who know what's best for their communities are responsible for identifying projects to the provinces and territories which in turn prioritize and submit projects to Infrastructure Canada.

As I mentioned, the department has several funding streams through which projects for water and waste-water public infrastructure can receive support, and that includes the federal gas tax fund and the new building Canada fund.

Since 2002, Infrastructure Canada has supported more than 6,000 drinking water projects across the country through the federal gas tax fund and other contribution programs. Our investments in these projects total more than $3.5 billion.

The Government of Canada is committed to supporting provincial, territorial, and municipal priorities, including investing in water and wastewater projects that will contribute to the health and safety of Canadians.

Through the government's investing in Canada plan, more than $180 billion in federal funding will be provided to important public infrastructure projects, including water and wastewater projects.

Through Infrastructure Canada's funding programs, the department is helping to build strong, sustainable, and inclusive cities and communities, where Canadians want to live.

Thanks for inviting me to speak with you today about the important work Infrastructure Canada is doing on behalf of Canadians.

I would be happy to answer any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Carreau, from the Department of Health, do you have any opening remarks that you want to make?

[Greg Carreau, Director, Water and Air Quality Bureau, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm Greg Carreau, director of the water and air quality bureau at Health Canada. I'm here today with my colleagues, Véronique Morisset and Scott Hancock. I don't have any formal opening remarks to make. I would just like to take a minute to thank you for inviting Health Canada to participate in this very important discussion.

My department has an extensive history in assessing and managing the human health effects of lead, notably with respect to drinking water, and we work very closely with the provinces and territories on developing guidelines for Canadian drinking water quality. These drinking water quality standards are used by federal, provincial, and territorial agencies as a basis to establish their own regulatory requirements for drinking water quality. As you may be aware, we're working very closely with our colleagues on the federal, provincial, and territorial committee on drinking water to strengthen the guideline on lead. It was updated in 1992, but we are now updating it to reflect more up-to-date scientific and technological advancements.

I look forward to the discussion today and welcome any comments or questions you may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Rayes, you have six minutes.

Welcome to our new members who are joining us today, as well as Mr. Bratina.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Yes, the new team.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning. My thanks to the witnesses for coming here.

My first question is for either Health Canada or the Office of Infrastructure of Canada.

Is there a complete inventory of the water pipes that might contain lead here in Canada?

[Greg Carreau]

Thank you very much for the question. From Health Canada's perspective, we do not have a comprehensive inventory currently of all lead service lines that may exist across Canada. Of course, we are aware that lead has been used historically in infrastructure for drinking water across Canada, but to date, we're unaware of a comprehensive inventory in Canada.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

I would like to hear what the officials from the Office of Infrastructure of Canada have to say about this.

[Alain Desruisseaux]

We do not have an exhaustive list. We rely on our partners, basically the provinces and the municipalities, who are responsible for assessing the needs. As I mentioned, we rely on our partners to prioritize the projects themselves.

In terms of specific information the provinces and municipalities have, I guess it varies.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

I'm surprised. I was honestly expecting to hear that a national database had been created for that purpose, especially since you say that you work closely with the provinces and, in turn, with the municipalities, I imagine. God knows that this is a serious problem for municipalities. This is the case in many parts of Canada.

Would it not be wise to have such a database?

The government wants to implement programs. It chooses the ones in which it wants to invest money; so it sets priorities.

When it develops its budget, how does it decide to prioritize water quality, for example, in infrastructure programs, and to allow work to be done on the pipes?

[Alain Desruisseaux]

This is really the responsibility of the provinces and the municipalities. At the Office of Infrastructure of Canada, we ensure that the priorities of the provinces are aligned with those identified by the Government of Canada and that the projects are in line with the terms and conditions of the programs.

In terms of the assessment of specific needs, we rely on the provinces and the municipalities.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

In my opinion, if you rely on the municipalities and they have access to those data, it should not be so complicated—with two territories and 10 provinces—to compile that information in a database in order to be able to monitor the situation. As a result, the government or the department responsible for infrastructure could have a longer-term perspective and a clearer idea of the time required to address the problem across Canada. Honestly, your answer really surprises me.

The infrastructure bank is a topic much debated in the House of Commons. We hear that the bank is going to have $35 billion for projects.

Are the projects related to drinking water and the replacement of water mains among the priorities of the Office of Infrastructure of Canada?

Could municipalities get funding for this through the infrastructure bank?

[Alain Desruisseaux]

It is difficult to elaborate on the bank, which has not yet been created. So the eligibility of the projects remains to be confirmed, but the ones you are talking about represent significant investments. They will require a risk transfer and they are fairly complex. We are thinking of cross-border projects, that is to say needing cooperation between provinces.

As to whether water projects might be eligible, it is a little early for me to give you a clear answer. However, that is not the type of project that the bank will most likely support.

I should point out that, in terms of long-term investments, we are working closely with Statistics Canada and our municipal and federal partners to gather more asset management data.

Asset management has been identified as a key pillar, moving forward with the long-term plan, and it's a key gap. We need to collect more data, and that points to water as well.

It's a point well taken. We have to collect more information. That points to the water networks in Canada, but also points to all categories of assets. This has been identified as a gap we need to address, and this is a key priority for the Government of Canada moving forward.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

I encourage you to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Make it just a short question.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Yes. This is just a comment.

I encourage you to go through the exercise with a number of the elected officials here. I can confirm that all municipalities have access to those data. At any rate, the vast majority have access to them.

In order for the government to make decisions, regardless of the party in power, the department should have access to that information to be able to make forecasts. I bring it back to the budget exercise. I think it would make us a little less cynical in the way we see things.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mr. Rayes.

Mr. Iacono.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Madam Chair, please note that I will be sharing my time with Mr. Bratina.

I have a quick question.

We know full well that the municipalities, and sometimes the provinces, are responsible for water pipes. What role can Canada play in ensuring that Canadians have access to safe drinking water?

[Laura Di Paolo, Director General, Program Integration, Office of Infrastructure of Canada]

On the federal side, we can fund a number of projects. We tend to fund public infrastructure projects to produce safe drinking water and build drinking water pipes.

As far as we are concerned, the issue is more with the pipes that go to the houses, which are considered private property. So we do not fund those projects. Our role is really to ensure that funding is available for public infrastructure projects that serve to provide drinking water to Canadians.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Bratina.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.

On this subject, you should know that starting in 2007, when I was on Hamilton council and subsequently mayor, we found to our surprise that we had lead exceedances. Even up until today we're still working on the problem, and we will be putting in a facility to put orthophosphate into the water system of Hamilton, which will mitigate the effects of all of the lead pipes, whether on private property or still old public mains.

I want to first of all go to the point that local decision-makers know best. The Department of National Defence just had an exceedance, from April 27, 2017, to May 8, 2017. You couldn't drink the water in the old Nortel building. One of the comments was that it didn't really matter, because that's something that only affects you over years and years of ingesting. I don't believe that Health Canada would agree totally with that statement.

Second, I want to emphasize in my question to the group the seriousness of lead exposure as it has more recently been discovered, with research such as what I'm looking at here, which is a March 2017 story in The Washington Post. It's about a survey of children with elevated blood lead levels at age 11, checked years later. This was a New Zealand study. They found that there was a direct and indisputable association with children's IQs. Lead damages brain health—we know it does—and public officials said there is no safe level of lead in a child's blood.

I'll address a question first of all to Health Canada. Do you feel that other jurisdictions, municipalities, provinces, and so on, are aware of current research indicating a more serious problem with lead than was previously supposed?

[Greg Carreau]

Thank you for the question.

As I mentioned at the outset, we do work very closely with provinces and territories on the implementation of drinking water quality standards. Recently we have been working with the provinces and territories very closely on the issue of lead. We have updated our drinking water quality guidelines in a proposed format which encompasses the very data you're speaking of, in terms of new data showing effects particularly with young infants.

Through our ongoing dialogue with the provinces and territories, we have been discussing this new science. We have put it in a format in our new drinking water quality guidelines which reduces the suggested limit. From our perspective, we believe we have been communicating the up-to-date science with the provinces and territories with respect to impacts on the IQ for infants.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I could give you other bits of evidence by people in control of municipal water supplies who say, “Well, it takes years. You'll never get sick from that.” I do think there's an educational process needed.

However, on the private part—and I know I'm close to my time—one of the things we developed in the City of Hamilton, and other cities, Ottawa, Guelph, and London, was a lone program for people with marginal incomes who lived in old houses with lead pipe service lines. They could borrow the money and pay it back on their water bill over 10 years.

Hamilton has cuts in the asphalt all over the older parts of the city; I believe we do something like 500 of those a year. Would Infrastructure Canada consider supporting these kinds of programs in a municipality?

I was struck by the phrase “local decision-makers...know what's best”. We have absolutely positive results in our city with this program. Every year, more service lines are taken out, the money is returned, and it keeps going. The City of Toronto turned it down. I have a copy of the council meeting where the mayor said, “I have trouble buying it because I've just seen too many fiascoes come out of this place.”

I don't think that was the best decision. I would like to ask if you would consider that a portion of the infrastructure money be allowed to be used by cities for a program like that. Do you think that would find compliance within your world?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bratina.

I'm going to have ask, if you can find an opportunity, to answer that question at another point in the meeting, or when one of our members has the floor.

Monsieur Aubin.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses for joining us this morning.

I was also surprised to learn that this record, this inventory of the situation does not exist at the federal level. I will try to understand the extent by asking questions that are more relevant to your area of expertise.

If there's no inventory, do you have an idea of the yearly number of projects or the amounts invested in projects that directly affect water quality?