Evidence of meeting #89 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was boats.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)) Liberal Judy Sgro
I call to order this meeting of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, meeting number 89, pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, December 5, 2017, Bill C-64, an act respecting wrecks, abandoned, dilapidated, or hazardous vessels and salvage operations.
We have a variety of witnesses on our panels today. I'd like to ask you if you would take a moment to introduce yourselves.
I'll start with Mr. White.
3:35 p.m.
Patrick White Founder and Executive Director, Project Naval Distinction
Thank you, Chair. My name is Patrick White, and I am the Founder and Executive Director of Project Naval Distinction.
3:35 p.m.
Vice-Admiral Retired) Denis Rouleau (As an Individual
I am retired Vice-Admiral Denis Rouleau. I used to be the Vice-Chief of Defence here in Canada and in Brussels. Now I'm simply an assistant to Captain Paul Bender, whose project we'll be talking about here today.
3:35 p.m.
Sara Anghel President, National Marine Manufacturers Association Canada
I'm Sara Anghel, President of the National Marine Manufacturers Association, representing the recreational boating industry.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
Thank you very much.
Ms. Anghel, would you like to start with a five-minute presentation? We try to keep everybody to five minutes because the committee members always have a lot of questions that they need to get answers to.
Please, go ahead.
3:35 p.m.
President, National Marine Manufacturers Association Canada
Absolutely. Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the committee.
On behalf of the entire recreational boating industry and community, thank you for the opportunity to be here before you today on Bill C-64.
The National Marine Manufacturers Association, known as NMMA, is the leading association representing the recreational boating industry at the national level across Canada and the United States. Our member companies produce more than 80% of the boats, engines, trailers, accessories, and gear used by North American boaters.
NMMA, through regional efforts, also represents marina operators, dealers, and finance and insurance companies. In Canada, the recreational boating industry generates $10 billion in revenues, contributes $5.6 billion to the national GDP, and employs more than 75,000 people across the country. More than 4,000 businesses serve approximately 12.4 million adult Canadians who enjoy boating each year on our waters.
We place great importance on ensuring marine safety, preserving marine ecosystems, and promoting improvements to environmental stewardship. Therefore, NMMA is largely supportive of the proposed legislation and of the oceans protection plan.
As an indication of our commitments to these causes over the last 20 years, marine manufacturers across North America have invested billions of dollars to develop cleaner, quieter, more efficient engines that reduce emissions by 75% to 90% and increase fuel efficiency by more than 40%. In 2010, NMMA stepped up in a big way and worked on a voluntary basis with Environment Canada to develop new regulations requiring that engines sold in Canada meet U.S. EPA standards.
Each year, we publish statistics on the total number of boats sold, and for the committee's interest, in 2017 there were 39,000 new boats and 61,000 pre-owned boats sold across Canada. We estimate there are approximately 8.6 million recreational boats in use today, with over 50% of those being human powered with no engines.
NMMA is committed to a strong and enforceable licensing program and welcomes the opportunity to see an expanded and enhanced registration process. Having accurate data will help address the abandoned vessels issue and safety, while also providing valuable data for the boating industry.
Should Transport Canada enlist provincial assistance to deliver a new licensing program, we recommend that every effort be made to ensure a seamless delivery framework that includes consistent pricing regardless of province or territory. As a side note, I believe there are representatives from the insurance industry who may have good insight into this topic, and I would be pleased to facilitate an opportunity to enlist their expertise.
While NMMA is supportive overall of the provisions of the bill, we do have one fundamental concern. We appreciate that the legislation was written to encompass all vessels, and we appreciate that many of the boats needing cleanup are recreational. I do stress the importance of ensuring that, as regulations are developed, commercial vessels are treated differently from recreational boats. Disposing of a commercial vessel is a more complicated and expensive task than it is for a recreational boat.
Our industry wants to ensure the burden of cost is not disproportionately placed on recreational boats. Should any levies or taxes be imposed on recreational boats through licensing, these funds should be used to support disposal of recreational boats specifically.
Our association will continue helping identify solutions on this topic. We have applied for funding under Transport Canada's abandoned boats program, and our goal would be to reach across the nation to identify the size of the problem and then consider recycling options. Part of this solution may exist outside of Canada.
NMMA has taken a leadership role on the international stage on this and many other boating issues, much of this facilitated through the International Council of Marine Industry Associations, on whose executive committee I serve as Canada's representative. This global organization brings together recreational marine industry associations under one international umbrella, engaging proactively on the topic of end-of-life of boats and how best to expand recycling options by sharing best practices.
There are some sound recycling solutions in places like France, Sweden, the Netherlands, and Japan, just to name a few. I'd be pleased to share these learnings with Transport Canada and the committee, so that we don't work in a silo in Canada on this global topic.
We applaud the government for introducing Bill C-64, and we will continue to provide assistance and support as the bill moves forward.
Thank you for the time today and for the invitation to be here.
3:35 p.m.
VAdm (Ret'd) Denis Rouleau
Madam Chair, members of the committee, I'm very humbly here representing Captain Paul Bender, merchant navy, retired, who unfortunately two weeks ago had a fall. He will be 91 this year, and he's in the hospital right now recovering. I take no credit for any work that he has done—the research—for the past five years.
He has been the total lead of this, with the exception of two persons who were on the bench with him, as opposed to being in the bleachers. That was me, and Parliamentary Secretary Karen McCrimmon, who kindly gave us some time to look into this project.
In the spring of 2013, he initiated this project on the premise that if you go to Halifax or to London and you look at the memorials there, they say, for sailors, “tombs unknown” or “graves unknown”. His position is that this is not true. We know where they are. We know exactly where these ships are. Not only do we know where the ships are, but we know how many people went down with those ships.
Again on his own, in 2013-14, the first place he went was the ship that went down with the most people on board, the Athabaskan, off the coast of France. There were 128 sailors on board. He dealt directly with France through the embassy here and he got France to include the two Canadian warships within French territorial waters under the French heritage code. That means there are now punitive consequences for somebody who goes on those wrecks. International laws of the seas do not provide punitive consequences. They just provide jurisdiction.
His next step was to go to the U.K., where we have three corvettes that sank in British territorial waters. Again on his own, he went through the high consulate here to submit the request to have those three vessels placed under a special act that they have in the U.K., called the Protection of Military Remains Act. That is strictly to add punitive consequences to the international laws of the seas for the vessels that are sunk there.
He went there on his own. Interestingly, the U.K. looked at that and said it was coming from a single person and asked whether it was possible to get that from a higher level of authority. He went to the Naval Association of Canada. Of course, he has the support of all those people, but the U.K. insisted on having a Canadian position on that.
Therefore, we went through Global Affairs Canada, trying to get a request with the British delegation here, waiting for that request so they could staff it through England, and they were ready to do it. Unfortunately, Global Affairs Canada looked at that position and said this request could serve to undermine the current laws under which these vessels are protected. Well, they are not protected. Interestingly enough, the Germans have U-boats protected under that British law, but we can't get our Canadian warships that are sunk there protected under that same law.
The next steps for him are to get a political champion so that he can bring this project to fruition, and we believe that this committee has the power to possibly create that. We also need to have all those wrecks with sailors on board—and like I said we know where they are—legally designated as ocean war graves.
This is the title of this project, ocean war graves. The responsibility could be passed on to the Canadian agency, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, to which Canada subscribes a significant amount of money every year.
Global Affairs Canada needs to review its position as to the jurisdiction versus jurisdiction enforcement, which does not exist right now. Once we do that, we can go back to the U.K. The U.K. is waiting to include those three Canadian warships into its protection law.
After that, we will come to Canada. Here in Canada alone, we have nine warships within Canadian territorial waters, and 10 merchant ships that were sunk due to enemy action. All those vessels are known. Their positions are known. The number of people on board are known. It's just a matter of putting a law into place, whether it's something similar to what the U.K. has to protect the wrecks, to protect the war remains, or having our own law here.
For the merchant ships, it's an issue of changing or amending the Canada Shipping Act. It could very well easily do that to provide those merchant ships and warships the same level of protection that all our cemeteries have across the world for soldiers and airmen who actually fell.
This is all he is looking for, to give those sailors down in their graves at the bottom of the sea that same level of protection that is not available to them now, but that can be put into place.
Thank you very much.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
Thank you very much, sir. I appreciate that information.
Mr. White, you have five minutes.
3:40 p.m.
Founder and Executive Director, Project Naval Distinction
Madam Chair, members of the committee, thank you for the invitation to contribute to the committee's study on Bill C-64, the wrecked, abandoned and hazardous vessels act, with a specific focus on the need to provide protection for Canada's ocean war graves.
Before I begin my remarks, I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the incredible work of retired merchant navy Captain Paul Bender, who has led the charge to bring protection to Canada's ocean war graves. Captain Bender's efforts on this issue come after a remarkable lifetime of service to Canada, which includes his service during the Second World War, post-war service in the Royal Canadian Navy, and now at the age of 90, fighting to ensure the final resting places of Canada's sailors and merchant mariners are given the protection they unquestionably require. It is truly an honour to add our support to Captain Bender's work.
My name is Patrick White. I am the Founder and Executive Director of Project Naval Distinction.
Project Naval Distinction is an independent citizen initiative working to ensure all branches of the Canadian Armed Forces are given proper recognition across Canada. As the Royal Canadian Navy faces a natural challenge in connecting with Canadians beyond Canada's coastal communities, known as maritime blindness, our work has focused on ensuring the sailors of the Royal Canadian Navy are given recognition alongside the soldiers and aviators of the Canadian Army and the Royal Canadian Air Force.
We were made aware of Captain Bender's efforts to provide protection for Canada's ocean war graves from a Twitter exchange between Ian Holloway, dean of the University of Calgary's faculty of law and the minister responsible for Parks Canada. On January 1, in response to Dean Holloway's tweet about Joseph Brean's National Post article about ocean war graves, Minister McKenna confirmed she was looking into it. We contributed our suggestion for amending Bill C-64, an ideal vehicle through which to enact legislative protection for Canada's ocean war graves.
In the same National Post article, Captain Bender outlines numerous important reasons why Canada's ocean war graves need to be given protection immediately. On a fundamental level, we are drawn to his final comment that protection of Canada's ocean war graves is more than just symbolic recognition, it would “put the loss of sailors on the same plane as the loss of soldiers and airmen.”
There are clear and concrete reasons why this issue must be addressed with a sincere sense of urgency. As Captain Bender notes, he has, “the latitude and longitude position of every one of the Royal Canadian Navy ships that were lost during the Second World War". This information is readily available to salvagers and treasure hunters. The question is not whether these graves might be disturbed. The question, if we do not act, is when. In November, blood-stained canvas hammocks, used by Canadian soldiers on the ocean liner RMS Hesperian were found off the coast of Ireland indicating the ocean war grave had recently been disturbed. The same grave-robbing could be happening right now to other Canadian ocean war graves as we sit in this meeting.
In light of this information, I ask the committee to amend Bill C-64 to provide protection for all Canadian ocean war graves in Canadian waters under section 163(2) of the Canada Shipping Act, and ensure the punishments for those who commit an offence are in line with those of grave-robbing.
Further, and in their roles as individual Members of Parliament, I ask committee members to, first, request that the Minister of Transport, the minister responsible for Parks Canada, and the Minister of National Defence provide immediate protection to all of Canada's ocean war graves under the existing powers of the Canada Shipping Act. Second, I ask committee members to request that the Minister of Foreign Affairs ask the government of the United Kingdom to add Canadian ocean war graves to the list of protected places and controlled sites under the U.K. Protection of Military Remains Act, 1986, and third, given the urgency with which protection for ocean war graves is needed, request the Speaker of the House of Commons to hold an emergency debate on protection for Canada's ocean war graves.
The men and women who have made the ultimate sacrifice and given their lives for Canada deserve to remain undisturbed in their places of final rest. Whether on the battlefields or in the cemeteries of Europe, or in HMC ships at the bottom of the ocean, Canada's soldiers, aviators, and sailors deserve the same protection that any Canadian would expect for themselves and their families.
Thank you. I look forward to answering any questions.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
Thank you very much, Mr. White.
We'll start with questioning for six minutes.
Mr. Lloyd, welcome to the committee today.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Thank you. I'm happy to sit in for my colleague Ron Liepert, another Albertan.
We have a huge issue with derelict vessels. I was pleased to listen to the testimony today. I wanted to ask the National Marine Manufacturers Association how they foresee this legislation impacting their association members in increased costs or red tape.
3:45 p.m.
President, National Marine Manufacturers Association Canada
To date there hasn't really been a clear place to recycle the boats, so that's perhaps one part of the burden of where we take them. I think the industry welcomes the opportunity to work through the bill, and I haven't heard any of them say that it's a burden. We're here to help get this done, to clean up the issue, to look at viable recycling options, and to build a program that will see some funds available to deal with the matter. I welcome the opportunity to approach it.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
It would be reasonably foreseeable that a recycling regime for boats would need to be created and would lead to higher costs for retailers or manufacturers who build these boats.
3:50 p.m.
President, National Marine Manufacturers Association Canada
If you're talking about increased costs to build, it's not so much that. I think what we're looking at is what's viable for recycling. At this point, I don't see how the way it is today would impact the cost of manufacturing or retail until we find something to do with the scraps. They're always looking for ways to improve and make the products more environmentally friendly, and that's part of the puzzle. I still don't see it, in the immediate future, as an increased cost, unless we're looking at other options that would burden them through taxes and such. As I said all along, if that's the route it goes, we welcome the opportunity to create a viable recycling program.
I'm not sure what they're going to do with the abandoned vessels. They are where they are, and we need to work together to figure out how we're going to dismantle them and where we're going to take them. Right now the only option is to take them to a landfill, and that's probably not what we want to do.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Understood. You said in your testimony that a great number of abandoned vessels are recreational vessels. Do you have any figures on how many are large abandoned vessels?
3:50 p.m.
President, National Marine Manufacturers Association Canada
I'm not sure I said I thought there were a lot of abandoned vessels. I think what I was referring to was that there are about 8.6 million boats in use in the country, 50% of which are human-powered. These are canoes, kayaks, and vessels of lower than 10 horsepower, which the system doesn't capture in registration. Let's call that the smaller part of the problem.
I don't know. We've applied for the funding, now that this program is upon us, to really get at the core of how big the opportunity is. It could be—although more so on the west coast—that there are hundreds across the country, but I don't have any way to measure it at this time. Again, I welcome the opportunity to work with the government on that.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
February 7th, 2018 / 3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.
Ms. Anghel, I'm going to start with you. If a recreational boat owner is finished with their boat now, what do they do with it? If it can no longer be used, where does it go?
3:50 p.m.
President, National Marine Manufacturers Association Canada
There isn't currently any legislation or—
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
I just mean in general. We know that responsible boat owners look after their vessels. What do you do if a vessel is no longer...?
3:50 p.m.
President, National Marine Manufacturers Association Canada
I think some of them have probably tried to work with their local marina to find a place to dispose of the vessel. It's probably disposed of at a landfill through dismantling the different components that can be recycled.
There was a program in Ontario funded by the Ministry of the Environment that was looking at grinding up the fibreglass and turning it into cement. There are a lot of these opportunities in other parts of the world. That funding ceased to exist a few years ago, so that went away. There's an opportunity to go back there.
There aren't a lot of great solutions for disposing of them responsibly.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Are the majority of recreational vessels made of fibreglass?
3:50 p.m.
President, National Marine Manufacturers Association Canada
I would say no, they're not. You can pull my statistics, but I'm going to say probably 60% are aluminum, which is recyclable, and I'd say about 40% are fibreglass. Keep in mind that the lifespan of a recreational boat is quite long. They do have long lives, and they're built well as per Transport Canada construction standards and our certification program. We're looking at much older vessels—probably from the fifties and sixties—that we're seeing pop up as abandoned.