Evidence of meeting #6 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aircraft.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
I'm not talking about our certification process, I'm talking about the U.S. certification process.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey
Thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.
Thank you, Mr. Garneau.
Go ahead, Mr. Bachrach.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister, for being here.
The congressional House committee on transport, which has been holding hearings as you know, released a preliminary report a few days ago. They describe how the financial pressure on Boeing to compete with Airbus led to decisions and assumptions that “jeopardized the safety of the flying public”. The company was prioritizing its finances over the safety of the flying public.
They also found that there is a “culture of concealment" that saw Boeing withholding crucial information from the FAA, including “hiding the very existence of MCAS from 737 MAX pilots".
On the current regulatory process, the report states that “the FAA’s current oversight structure with respect to Boeing creates inherent conflicts of interest that have jeopardized the safety of the flying public”.
Given these revelations and how they relate not just to the certification of the 737 Max but also to a more general failure of self-regulation at Boeing and the prioritization of financial interests over safety, can Canadians still trust FAA-certified aircraft?
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC
There's no question: We've read these reports as well that have come out, and they speak for themselves.
I can tell you that one of things we undertook after the tragic Ethiopian aircraft downing was that we would review our validation processes to see if we could make them better. Since that time, we have participated in many committees with other regulators, including the FAA; EASA, the European regulator; and ANAC, the Brazilian regulator; and we are also participating in a group called the joint authorities technical review panel, so that we can examine the whole question of how certification needs to be done properly.
If we cast our minds back to decades in the past, we know that Canada has had lots of Boeing aircraft, going back to the 707 and the ones that came after that, and Airbuses. In the past, this process has worked very well. The certification—
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC
Now after the Max 8, we are reviewing this situation.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
After the first crash of Lion Air, on November 19, Transport Canada signed a validation improvement road map with the FAA.
The stated goal of this roadmap was to take “progressive steps to reduce, if not eliminate, indepth technical involvement”, by a validating authority such as Transport Canada, where Transport Canada would undertake “no further technical review or additional issuance of validation approvals” on an FAA-certified aircraft.
Do you agree with this agreement with the FAA?
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC
I will ask David Turnbull, who is my chief responsible for certification, to answer the question.
David Turnbull Director, National Aircraft Certification, Department of Transport
Thank you for the question.
Personally, no, I don't. In fact, the mandate of that activity is in the process of being rewritten. It so happens that this particular mandate was written at a particular point in time. I was not present at that meeting.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
It was signed by Transport Canada after the first crash occurred.
Director, National Aircraft Certification, Department of Transport
It was signed, but I'm telling you here and now that the wording of it was planned to be altered prior to these accidents.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
We signed a version with that wording. Isn't that correct?
Director, National Aircraft Certification, Department of Transport
It's still in the process of being revised. We meet annually with the FAA. It's on the agenda for our next meeting.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Minister, can you commit to providing the committee with internal departmental documents indicating your department's assessment and the reservations of your officials regarding Transport Canada's reliance on the FAA's assessment in approving the 71 design changes to the Boeing 737 Max?
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC
We can commit to providing any documentation that Transport Canada generates with respect to validated certification.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Regarding the 71 design changes to the 737 Max, had you yourself been informed of those changes?
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC
I had not been informed about the specific 71, but I take full responsibility for the validation of the certification of the Max 8 by Canada.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
At a press conference on March 13, 2019—this was the press conference at which you announced the grounding of the 737 Max—you stated that you were "very, very comfortable with the fact that the FAA is the certifying agency".
Given what has come to light in the United States, do you stand by those comments?
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC
I have watched very closely what has happened in the past year. I think the FAA itself is recognizing that certain changes need to be made with respect to its certification process. It will be up to them to make them, and we will watch what they do in terms of certification.
NDP
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC
I made comments on the 13th based at that time on it. That is what I believed, yes.