Transport Committee on Jan. 28th, 2021

[Mike Mueller]

That's why we're asking for a sector-specific approach and a sector-specific strategy, to have government working with industry to tackle some of those different issues that you mentioned.

With respect to that overall strategy, it's something that is needed. It's timely and it has to happen now.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you for your response.

Mr. Best, you said earlier that, last year, NAV CANADA executives and managers decided to award themselves generous bonuses worth approximately $7 million.

Perhaps you can tell me more about this. It seems that, when the decision was made to cut back on services, staff and safety, management's priority was to give themselves gifts instead of dealing with these issues.

[Doug Best]

Yes, it does appear that the Nav Canada management have given themselves bonuses and have decided to lay people off, but the reality is, I think, that the question is much better answered by Nav Canada itself.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I also want to know whether you believe that the service cuts that took place have compromised air traffic control safety.

[Doug Best]

I'm sorry. The translation was very short. Can it be repeated, please?

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I asked you whether the service cuts have affected air transportation safety and whether the proposed cuts would also affect safety.

[Doug Best]

Absolutely. The safety of the general public is paramount to air traffic controllers. Nav Canada's priorities are misplaced. They're not focused on safety or the economic stability of the air navigation industry. We're absolutely committed to protecting Canadian airspace and all those who use it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Best.

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

We're now going to move on to the NDP, with Mr. Cannings.

Mr. Cannings, welcome. I see you're taking over for Mr. Bachrach. I also want to mention, before I get to you, that we have Ms. Elizabeth May with us.

Ms. May, welcome. It's great to have you around the horseshoe here. We are going to be allotting you some time in the third round. Mr. Bittle has been kind enough to give you his five minutes.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate it very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

No problem, Ms. May.

Mr. Cannings, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to start by prefacing my questions and remarks with thanking all the witnesses here for coming. I hear your message about the situation of the industry.

My riding has three regional airports that have all been hit hard. I know that if Mr. Bachrach were here, he would have the same message. I think he has five regional airports in his riding. I have Penticton, Castlegar and Trail. Air Canada has completely pulled out of my riding. It used to have multiple flights per day. It's been a huge issue for my riding in regard to people being able to move. As people have been mentioning, there are the cargo issues as well.

I'd also like to point out to the Atlantic airports people that the Sydney airport, which you mentioned, is named after my grandmother's cousin, J.A.D. McCurdy, a real family hero, so I have a personal stake in that airport as well, in that sense.

We're all concerned about the viability of the industry, especially with regard to regional routes. In early December, I talked face to face with Minister Garneau about the sector-specific supports that were apparently being negotiated at the time. He told me this was ongoing.

I'd like to start by asking Mr. Ferguson about those negotiations: whether his union has been engaged by the government in those talks and whether or not they have what he would be pushing for to shape those supports in regard to the workers he represents.

[Derek Ferguson]

To start off there, we have had no response from former minister Garneau. We've reached out on numerous occasions to speak on these issues and as of yet have had no response.

The IAMAW position is that the regional airports and the regional routes being reinstated must be part of any plan that comes to fruition. This may even mean some of these smaller routes, etc. It may be a point that the government might have to think about having some sort of stake in it, undertaking some sort of nationalization of these routes, because these smaller communities—not just the members, but the communities themselves—with the isolation, etc. and the strap for goods and services, must be part of any plan.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thanks. I may come back to you on this if I have time later, but I want to touch on the Nav Canada and air traffic control situation, especially with regard to Castlegar, which serves quite a large area. It would take someone four hours to drive to the next airport, if they couldn't fly in and out of Castlegar. It has always had issues during the winter about reliability because of weather, and they've been working hard, spending a lot of money, to fix those issues.

Now they're very concerned, because they're on the list of Nav Canada studies to see whether their tower would be closed. If it is closed, of course, it would make all that effort really moot. It might be very difficult to resume service in any meaningful way.

I'd like to start with Mr. Best about the issue of safety at airports like that, especially Castlegar, where you're in a mountainous situation. If you had an automated tower, what are some of the issues that would make it very difficult to service that airport?

[Doug Best]

Thank you for the question.

With regard to Castlegar, it used to be an air traffic control tower. Now it's an airport advisory service. It is on Nav Canada's list to stop providing service there. This is where flight service specialists work. They provide a weather advisory and advise pilots and airport users on what's going on at a specific time.

Air traffic control is a different service. We provide actual separation to all airplanes. We make the decision for the pilot, more or less, allowing them to worry about flying the airplane and not what's going on around them.

With regard to how difficult it is to fly into places such as Castlegar, Whitehorse and mountainous areas, without the services provided by flight services and air traffic control, it makes it extremely difficult. I believe that Mr. Giguere, a very experienced pilot, can answer this all for himself, but it absolutely makes...safety is paramount.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thanks, I was just going to move on to Mr. Giguere to answer that.

[Rob Giguere]

Thank you, and sorry about the connectivity issues.

Very clearly, a high-level review and study is required, but suffice it to say that controlled airports, like everything in aviation, are about risk management. A controlled airport that has reduced its risk makes operations more efficient, which also reduces the carbon footprint, so obviously there is a clear linkage there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Giguere. Thank you, Mr. Cannings. Well done.

We're now going to move into our second round. We have five minutes each for the Conservatives and the Liberal Party. We have Mr. Soroka starting off with the CPC, and we have Mr. Rogers for the Liberal Party, followed by two and a half minutes each for Mr. Barsalou-Duval and Mr. Cannings.

We'll start off with Mr. Soroka.

Mr. Soroka, the floor is yours, for five minutes.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to each of the presenters for coming today.

My first question will go to Mr. Mueller and Mr. Giguere.

I can't help but think that every time we've had someone come to our committee, they talk about the wage subsidy program as what's only really been offered to support the industry. That is almost what they're guaranteeing, that somehow you guys would get the 75% subsidy, the industry is just going to keep going as normal, everything is going to be fine and they don't need to do anything more. That's the impression I'm getting from all the presenters.

My question for you two is, when you have met with government and you've said that we need to have more, are they listening to you, or are they just patting you on the head and thanking you for coming today? What are they saying, and are they trying to assist you in any way?

I'll start with Mr. Mueller.

[Mike Mueller]

Just on the issue of the wage subsidy, it's been an absolute lifeline for our industry. One of the things we would be looking for on that piece, moving forward, is an extension beyond when they have already indicated it wrapping up, for sectors like ours that are being harder hit.

With respect to the broader question on sector-specific support, I believe they are listening, but now is the time for action. When you look at our competitor countries like France, just for the aerospace sector alone there's $1.7 billion for innovation, green technology. When we look at what's going on internationally, I would agree with the other witnesses here that now is the time to act, now is the time for that support.

The wage subsidy is barely keeping some folks afloat, and we've seen 20% layoffs across the board on the defence side. That's bad, but if you look at the civil side, it's up to 50% layoffs. I know some of the other witnesses can talk about that, too. It is dire. We do need the support.

To your original question, which is whether I think they're listening, I think they're listening, but we need some action now.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Mr. Giguere, would you please answer that?

[Rob Giguere]

I would support Mr. Mueller's view that the time for action is now. While the CEWS program is of some assistance, it's for those employees who are still employed. In Air Canada's case, our particular group has a significant number laid off. As well, in the larger company, 20,000 are laid off, so clearly the aviation sector needs assistance. Other G7 countries have given terrific assistance to their airlines. There is none yet from Canada. We're hopeful.

It's important, because without it, Air Canada and the airlines in Canada will be disadvantaged as to how they operate in the future against other carriers.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Best, you painted such a wonderful picture there, with the air traffic controllers and the safety. I am very concerned that right now there are not as many flights coming into a lot of the airports, but the point is, in the future, where is our safety going to be if we don't have that staff anymore? How are we ever going to be able to get our industry back if there isn't the assistance right now?

[Doug Best]

It's quite obvious why I am here today. We have a goal and it's a requirement for Canada to retain the world-class expertise we have. We can't allow for short-sighted decisions with regard to laying off air traffic controllers. As safety is paramount, it will be affected. Without us, believe me, with our staff shortages, economic recovery will be very slow.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Mr. Best, again, that's the point that concerns me—the fact that they are being laid off. Are they then just going to another industry or another country? Would they still stay in Canada, or are they just going to move to a different country where there is better-quality air service?

[Doug Best]

It's a good question. With regard to air traffic controllers, I can tell you that, with the ones who have been served notice already, I have already seen several examples of them looking for employment elsewhere around the world. We're very highly skilled. We're in demand, and there's a staff shortage around the world; there has been for at least a decade now, if not more. There will be brain drain with regard to us losing the skills.