Transport Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2021

[Jonathan Bagg]

The assessment of the issues will be included in our submission to Transport Canada.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Okay, so the answer is no. We'll have to do an ATIP for your assessment of the information, if we want. I can do that with my American colleagues, I suppose, on the U.S. side.

There were two studies previous to that, and they proved the airspace was too dangerous to remove supports from the control tower. What do you think is different now that the traffic has tripled and become more complicated, with the U.S. military also using the airspace?

[Jonathan Bagg]

The last completed study for Windsor was in 1998, so more than two decades ago. That's quite a while ago. There are certainly some things that are similar, like the fact that there's complex airspace in the vicinity, but we've also seen things change, the tools that our staff use, certainly the prevalence of GNSS navigation and GPS availability.

We are taking a good look at whether there is a possibility for a change in service. No determination has been made, but we will be taking into account all of the related factors.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

In his testimony, Mr. Bohn noted that you've eliminated 720 positions. Does that have any impact whatsoever on your study? When those positions were eliminated, obviously that affected your organization. How does that affect the studies that are taking place and your capabilities to evaluate things in the current context, especially since you've asked for government support to maintain your staffing component, but were denied that by the government? How does that affect the studies?

[Jonathan Bagg]

We've maintained our full capability to undertake the studies. The level-of-service team, as it's called, has a very broad base of knowledge, including folks with backgrounds in air traffic control, flight operations, aeronautical information management. We have the full capability to conduct a thorough, quality study, which will be vetted by Transport Canada as well.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Bohn, with regard to the current staffing levels, you're right—you actually can issue the letters if you want to, which you did exercise. It's not a gift to the employees to exercise that. That could be done later on. You can jettison them more quickly rather than later if you want to.

There was already a shortage in Canada for air traffic controllers, and keeping them in Canada will be a challenge. What's the plan with regard to that? Was there actually a shortage prior to this situation? I am worried about a brain drain, so to speak, from controllers losing confidence in having a job in Canada for the long term.

[Ray Bohn]

Certainly before the pandemic, our staffing levels were at 98% of requirement. That being said, certainly that differs from one site to another, so there were some sites that were short-staffed prior to the pandemic. As we plan not only our level of service but any other reductions within the workforce on the operational side, we look well through the recovery at what we anticipate traffic will look like beyond, to ensure that we will have adequate staffing to provide the service that Canadians and our customers have grown accustomed to. This is extremely important.

I think it's very important to make the point that we are not looking at numbers related to COVID traffic, but, rather, making our plans around where we anticipate traffic will be well into the future. As you heard earlier—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Bohn, sorry, I know I'm running out of time.

For the record, I think it's important for leadership.... Did you receive a bonus with regard to what has taken place with the $7 million? Were you part of the management system that received a bonus during this time?

[Ray Bohn]

I did receive a bonus. There was no corporate bonus for executives from March 1, the date of the pandemic, for the balance of the fiscal year. The amounts payable were with respect to the pre-pandemic period.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Do you not agree that it might be difficult for some to accept that there were $7 million of bonuses to hundreds of managers at a time when people are losing their jobs and their livelihoods? Didn't it worry you, about the message that sends to the rest of Canada?

[Ray Bohn]

Any decisions that we made with respect to workforce adjustment were difficult decisions, undoubtedly, but, as I mentioned earlier, all management has received significant reductions to not only their pay, but also their pension as a result.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

They still have a job and other people don't, and I think that's one of the challenges. When the government looks to support Nav Canada, if there's a decision, wouldn't you think that maybe bonuses shouldn't be part of that? Would you guarantee or commit today that if there is going to be support from the federal government, none of that money will go to bonuses?

[Ray Bohn]

We will look at our compensation policies and ensure that we make appropriate decisions in order to retain and attract people to the organization and do what is best in the context.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Bohn.

Thank you, Mr. Masse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

We're now going to move on to the second round. First up is Mr. Shipley from the Conservative Party for five minutes, then Ms. Jaczek from the Liberal Party for five minutes, Mr. Barsalou-Duval from the Bloc for two and a half minutes, and I assume Mr. Masse again for two and a half minutes.

Mr. Shipley, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for appearing today. Your time is much appreciated.

My first question is going to be for Ms. Marshall.

Ms. Marshall, you mentioned that Pearson is down about 85%. I'm hoping that I can get some more information. Does your group or organization have any access to other large airports outside of Canada—meaning perhaps in London, New York or L.A.? Is their percentage of passengers down? I'm just trying to get a comparison as to what's going on in the world compared to what's going on in Canada or your location at Pearson.

[Hillary Marshall]

I can speak to some of the travel impacts we've seen in other jurisdictions. It is very fluid. Countries have introduced different travel restrictions. For example, we know that some airports in the United States, in key hubs, were only down as much as 50% to 70%. We know that in other jurisdictions there hasn't been a great propensity to travel.

However, we are down significantly. We spent the first period of time down more than 90%, year over year, in certain months. It continues to be a significant challenge for us to get a footing. As we deal with ongoing travel restrictions and changes and screening requirements, we're going to continue to see changes and impacts on our passenger numbers.

I'm looking at my colleague, Ian, in case he has any additional information.

[Ian Clarke, Chief Financial Officer, Greater Toronto Airports Authority]

Yes, we're still hurting—greater than 85%. This year, we're forecasting probably lower passenger volumes than in 2020. In an age where we're not getting government rent relief or the waiver, it doesn't make sense when we're going to be worse off than 2020.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you for that answer. That's interesting to hear.

We'll use Pearson, because that's where you are. It's 85% to 95% down, and perhaps even more this year. You're saying that some other regions are only down 50%. Obviously being down at all is detrimental to the industry. It's going to create job loss.

What would you say is the number one factor as to why we're down so much more? Is it because of a lack of rapid testing? Is it because of the lack of tougher rules in other jurisdictions? Would you put it down to one or two main reasons for that differential?

[Ian Clarke]

It's the conservative nature of Canadians. We've heard about the flight shaming. The regulatory changes were confusing to a lot of passengers. It is challenging. What we have to do is to rebuild passenger confidence and say that they're going to be safe and assure them that they can get back into the country.

We're battling a number of uphill challenges as well as the health of our airports and the economy, as well as the airlines. We're in for a long road. We need to work with government to come up with solutions that can rebuild this business together, thinking about innovation and investment in the right areas to get back the passengers.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you for that.

I'm shocked at what was mentioned earlier today. We're all hopeful that this comes to an end as soon as impossible. We need to get our economy back rolling. We need to get people back working. Earlier it was stated that these implications could last for three to four years, and then it was changed to perhaps five to seven years. That is obviously a long way out in your industry, which creates a tremendous number of jobs across the country. We need to get that turnaround as quickly as we can. Five to seven years is just unbelievable.

Mr. Clarke or Ms. Marshall, with the new rules that are being put out now for international travellers, perhaps you could tell me how involved Pearson is with helping to set up those rules. How much information do you have so far?

I'm getting people calling our office daily. We're only 45 minutes up the road from Pearson. Are you aware yet of what's going to happen when someone comes back from international travel? Have the hotels been picked? Are they going to have any choice in anything? Are you involved yet in any of these choices?

I was asked one question by a resident who is currently away. This may seem frivolous, but it's a small thing and it's important to them. They're away right now with their two dogs. They said that when they come back, if they have to quarantine in a hotel for three days, will it be a hotel where they can take their dogs? They're part of their family.

How much planning has gone into it so far, and are you prepared for these new regulations?

[Hillary Marshall]

If you go back to your question about the impacts on passenger numbers, passenger confidence and passenger confusion contributes to lower passenger numbers. That is not to say it is not important for all Canadians to respect our efforts to battle COVID. We believe they should. We believe in a clear consistent approach to a testing framework, which we have called for, for many months now, together with the air carriers and others in the industry. We have been asking for a clear approach to testing frameworks for the better part of eight or nine months. That will provide passengers more confidence, a better understanding of how and when they can travel safely, and it will eventually allow for a reopening of safe travel. It has to be part of the go forward strategy.

These are not measures that airports decide upon. However, we do partner and lead in research. We led the way on research on aviation and the impacts of air travel in relation to the transmission of COVID. We partnered on that with McMaster HealthLabs. We have partnered with the Province of Ontario on the arrivals testing pilot program. We are about to launch a voluntary departures testing program with the National Research Council, for both passengers as well as airport workers.

Airports and air carriers, particularly airports, are doing everything they can to help lead the way toward a clear approach to testing, both on departures and arrivals, and we want to partner with government at the federal level to establish a clear framework going forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

We're now going to Ms. Jaczek, from the Liberal Party, for five minutes.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to all our witnesses. You've demonstrated, yet again, how complex the aviation sector really is.

My first question is for Mr. Gagnon.

We heard a number of interesting suggestions through the course of the study. I was intrigued by one that came to us from Air North. They were suggesting it might be a good idea to re-regulate the sector on a temporary basis as a way to get through the crisis. In their case, they were saying that by keeping other carriers out of Yukon, they, in fact, could survive without needing any additional subsidies. In other words, they were suggesting a regional monopoly for certain companies in order to guarantee a more predictable level of revenue. Of course, that would limit competitive pressure, but they, in fact, could survive.

Do you have any thoughts on the subject?