Transport Committee on Feb. 23rd, 2021

[Derron Bain]

I'm very familiar with the project, since we delivered it. The project involved the design, build or construction, finance and building maintenance and life cycle of the 18 schools. It's actually nine facilities with two schools per facility. The Saskatchewan model is quite unique in that it brings the public system alongside the Catholic system to deliver education in a joint use facility.

As I laid out I think previously, the delineation of responsibility is really around Concert Infrastructure and our partners making those schools available to the government standard and requirements for the education to take place in those schools as well as the building maintenance and life cycles. We're responsible for maintaining the HVAC system, the landscaping, the grounds around the school. But we have no responsibility for the delivery of education within those facilities. We do not have responsibility for the traditional caretaker or janitorial services that are provided in these public facilities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Bain. Thank you, Mr. Rogers.

We're now going to move on to the Bloc.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have two and half minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Penner, in his opening remarks, Mr. Bain seemed to be saying that the Canada Infrastructure Bank could play a leadership or an advisory role with the government on the way it manages its infrastructure. He added that, instead of simply waiting for projects to be proposed to it, it could be more proactive.

Do you think this would be a good idea?

[Dylan Penner]

I think it depends on a few considerations, but fundamentally, it gets back to whether or not the CIB's mandate is one of expanding privatization and P3 projects or whether it's a mandate for expansion of public infrastructure. I think it could play a positive role if it is focused on public infrastructure. If it continues to be focused on private, it undermines the needs of people in communities.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

That's sort of what worries me. We are currently seeing that it is the Canada Infrastructure Bank's mandate to find opportunities to privatize our infrastructure.

Wouldn't it be something of a Trojan horse for the Canada Infrastructure Bank to have a mandate to find opportunities to privatize our current infrastructure instead of waiting for projects?

[Dylan Penner]

That's definitely a concern. It gets back to questions of community accountability as well. If and when the various problems that have plagued P3s and continue to plague them arise in other projects, there is no recourse for local communities in the same way, in terms of holding governments at all levels accountable. These are projects that are operated by private consortiums that can basically ignore public criticism, including local city councils.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Mr. Bain, earlier, I asked Mr. Penner about compensation policies and the Canada Infrastructure Bank's apparent lack of transparency. I would like to hear your thoughts on that.

As someone who is involved in the private sector, how are you reacting to the fact that public funds are being managed with so little transparency?

[Derron Bain]

I think I'm drawing on my formal education in public administration as well as having worked for the government. I think I would always advocate for greater transparency, not less, in any of the activities of government or a government agency. I would certainly advocate in support of full transparency on the agreements and the business of government, including its agencies, such as CIB.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval. Thank you, members.

I'll move on now to Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Bachrach, you have two and half minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a couple of final questions for Mr. Penner. We've talked a little bit about the auditors general and reports of their concerns about P3s. I wonder if you can talk specifically about the ways in which the CIB projects are likely to replicate those flaws.

[Dylan Penner]

I think it gets back to the nature of P3s. If we have this body of evidence that we've seen from the auditors general that existing P3s have had these problems—for example, in terms of the cost overruns—then the evidence tells us that future P3s are going to have the same problems that we've seen with current and previous P3s. I think the evidence speaks for itself.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Penner, the minister often says that we aren't going to be able to address Canada's infrastructure needs without bringing in private capital. This is something that we heard today from Mr. Fillmore as well.

Do you think this assertion is accurate?

[Dylan Penner]

I don't think it's accurate. If we genuinely want to see new infrastructure and there are all these problems with P3s in terms of a lack of democratic oversight, in terms of cost overruns, in terms of delivering less, why would we not go the route of public infrastructure where we don't see this level of serious problems.

It gets back to the claim that maybe there are some privately funded infrastructure projects that have worked. I think the reality is that if a clock is right twice a day that doesn't mean that it works.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

In what ways would you improve the Canada Infrastructure Bank? Assuming that there is some potential in this mechanism, how would you salvage it if you were tasked with doing so?

[Dylan Penner]

I think there is still potential. It gets back to fundamentally the key thing is returning its mandate to focusing on publicly financed projects and moving away from and ruling out privatization and P3s. That's really what's going to be in the public interest. It's going to be much more responsive and accountable to local governments. The timelines will be better. We won't see the same kinds of cost overruns, which means that there's more money available for other projects.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you.

Members, thank you for a very good meeting. It went very well.

Witnesses, I thank you as well, as your contributions will no doubt be included in the final report that will be presented to members of the committee.

With that, I now adjourn this meeting. Have a wonderful evening.