Transport Committee on Feb. 25th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Minister.

We're now going to move on to Mr. Fillmore.

Mr. Fillmore, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thanks, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being with us today.

I just want to say thanks, also, for your words about the climate lens and our continued work to make it better and stronger as we go forward. Thank you for that.

First of all, your critic Mr. Scheer has complained that there aren't enough projects and that projects aren't going fast enough, yet he wanted to cut $18 billion from the infrastructure fund, which would have been about half the budget of the CIB. Then we just heard from Ms. Kusie some strange sentiments with regard to climate action and the importance of having a price on carbon in this country and transitioning to a low-carbon economy.

Putting those two things together, I just wonder if you could talk to the committee about why this is the right moment, this moment when we are in a pandemic, when workforce participation is low and when there is a climate crisis. Why is now the time, more than ever, to be investing in infrastructure that is green and smart and helps us to transition to a low-carbon economy rather than hobbling it by budget cuts?

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I think that's a really important point.

I'm someone who cares greatly about taxpayer dollars. I believe that every dollar that we invest has to get multiple outcomes. What does it have to get, especially right now when we're in an economic crisis, the greatest crisis since the Great Depression? We need jobs. We've committed, as a government, to creating a million jobs. We need growth.

We also need more inclusive communities and better infrastructure. By “inclusive”, I don't just mean indigenous communities and racialized communities; I also mean that rural areas need good infrastructure.

Three, we need to make sure that we're tackling climate change, because climate change is real. Also, I just think that with regard to this idea that tackling climate change is negative for the economy, we just have to look at the economy down south. The United States is going big in taking action on climate change, because that's where the opportunities are. That's where the growth is. That's where the jobs are. That's what we need to be doing.

It is worrying, though, to think that if you had a Conservative government, it would cut infrastructure dollars. This is absolutely the wrong time to do that. We need to be investing in infrastructure, and if you look at what we've done since the pandemic hit in March.... Every single week, my department has to bear with me, because I go through every single project that we are reviewing. We've approved 1,864 projects worth $2.85 billion since last March.

Do you know how many projects the Conservative government approved during its four-year majority? Nine hundred and seventy-five projects. In one year, in the middle of a pandemic, during a minority government, we've approved 1,864 while the previous Conservative government in four years only approved 975 projects.

Our projects are across the country, in Conservative ridings, in Bloc ridings, in NDP ridings and in Liberal ridings, and in rural communities and urban communities. These projects are helping create good jobs, growing their economies, tackling climate change and improving the quality of life of Canadians. That's what we want to do.

In the greatest recession since the Great Depression, and with a climate crisis, we need to be building back better, and that is what we are going to continue to do. That is what I'm going to continue to do every day, and we're going to be working with the Canada Infrastructure Bank looking in leveraging private sector investment to get more and better infrastructure built. I think we will look back at this time and say, “The pandemic was terrible, but guess what? We managed to make a transformational, once-in-a-generation difference in building infrastructure that is making a huge difference in the lives of Canadians, to our prosperity, to our competitiveness, and also in tackling climate change.”

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Chair, are there a few minutes left? How are we doing?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

You have about 40 seconds left.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Just quickly, then, you mentioned indigenous projects, Minister. Thank you for that. You recently wrote to the chair of the board of the CIB requesting that the CIB invest at least $1 billion in projects that benefit indigenous people. Can you, in the few seconds that are left, tell us what kind of projects we were thinking about there and how they would benefit indigenous communities?

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I'm going to focus on just one example, the Oneida energy storage project. That is with a first nation community. Do you know what? We have a huge infrastructure gap with indigenous peoples, but they also want to be part of building projects. They want to be part of growth and creating jobs. We have a huge opportunity to work with them.

I think it was extremely important that we created a clear priority, a clear focus, for the bank to invest $1 billion in partnership with indigenous peoples, whether that is in clean power or clean water. There is a whole range of opportunities and projects waiting to be there. This is on direct feedback I have had from first nations, Métis and Inuit peoples.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Mr. Fillmore.

We will now move to the Conservatives.

Mr. Scheer, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I want to respond to a couple of pieces of misinformation that some members on the committee have pointed out. First of all, when the Liberals try to make accusations about what our party was promising in the last election, it's important to keep in mind that 40% of the infrastructure dollars that were allocated in the first couple of years, 2017 and 2018, under your government, Minister, lapsed. That means it never got spent. It never got out the door. Your department's own internal audits have raised massive red flags in several areas. The Auditor General is currently investigating the infrastructure plan that your government has been rolling out.

The second thing I want to address is this idea that large projects take time. Of course you're right, Minister. There's no argument there. There's no argument that it takes more than just a few days or a couple of weeks to get a large infrastructure project built. Surely to goodness you can agree, though, that in four years the bank should have something to show for it. The previous CEO was paid a bonus, which usually, under Treasury Board guidelines, is reserved for exceeding expectations. I don't know what you were expecting the Infrastructure Bank to deliver, but since zero projects were completed and the former CEO received a bonus for that, you must have been expecting even less than that.

When we go back and look at the P3 fund that the previous Conservative government had, to do exactly what it is you're talking about, which is to unleash private sector investment, I can go over a long list of projects that were completed in a short period of time.

A water and waste-water plan in Kananaskis country was announced in 2012 and completed in 2014. In your hometown of Hamilton, the Hamilton biosolids project was announced in 2017 and operational in 2020. In my hometown of Regina, a large bypass and overpass project was put out for tender in 2014. Construction work began in 2015, the first phase was done in 2017 and the project was completed by 2019. The Iqaluit airport was—

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Excuse me, Mr. Scheer.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, did you have a point of order?

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Yes, I do have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I wanted to make sure that you did not make a mistake with the order of the parties for the round of questions. We just had a round with the Conservative Party, then a round with the Liberal Party, and we then went back to the Conservative Party. Am I wrong?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

No, it's correct. In the second round we had Ms. Kusie, Mr. Fillmore....

I'm sorry. I do apologize. I skipped over you and Mr. Bachrach and went right to Mr. Scheer. My apologies.

After Mr. Scheer is done, I will go back to you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval and Mr. Bachrach.

Once again, my apologies.

Mr. Scheer, go ahead.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I have outlined several large-scale projects. These are the types of projects that actually do provide a great deal of economic spinoff. There are all kinds of benefits. There is private sector involvement in these projects. The old P3 fund, which your government eliminated and replaced with the Canada Infrastructure Bank, was able to deliver on this. You must have concluded that something was wrong with the P3 plan. You came up with your own system.

In that system, in this Canada Infrastructure Bank, you have made all kinds of claims about leveraging twice, seven times the.... One of your officials even claimed at one point it was eleven times the investment, that for every dollar you put in from taxpayers' money, you would get eleven dollars back from the private sector.

So far, the only example of private sector that you have been able to point to is Réseau in Montreal, a project that was already green-lit. It was already going to get federal government funding. The Canada Infrastructure Bank just replaced traditional funding programs with that.

Do you have any other examples—of all the projects that are being listed—of where the private sector has invested and where you have been able to leverage that? Is your threshold for success with the Canada Infrastructure Bank still the two times, four times or seven times multiplier for private investment for every taxpayer dollar?

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I want to start by reminding everyone that we wouldn't be getting new infrastructure built under a Conservative government because they wanted to cut $18 billion to—

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

That's false. We had the same amount of overall—

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

That's just a campaign promise. I don't know.

And also, the Canada Infrastructure Bank—

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

You delivered on none of your promises.

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I have heard many times that the Canada Infrastructure Bank would be killed by the Conservatives. That is coming from Conservatives. I could go through some of the things you've said. My helpful officials have noted that the Regina project that you were talking about took two years of development, of planning. That's what happens for major projects. But I—

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

But it's completed.

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I also am looking forward to seeing projects going ahead. I've been very clear to the new CEO of the bank, to the new chair of the bank. They also have a growth plan that is intended to get to work over the next three years for smaller projects that are going to create jobs—

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Can you give us a number?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Mr. Scheer, the minister has the floor.

Minister, go ahead.

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Just one second, thank you.

My measure for success is that we get more and better infrastructure built for Canadians. When you talk about the 1,864 projects we approved in the past year where $2.85 billion—

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

We're talking about the infrastructure bank, Minister.

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I'm talking about any infrastructure project.