Transport Committee on Feb. 25th, 2021

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I believe they should be held to a higher standard.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Are they currently?

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

We are working with the bank, because they need to demonstrate how we are going to get emission reductions. They have to contribute to our climate plan, like anyone else.

It's different, though, and this is important, because I know you care greatly about this. What you are doing for one project, for example, if you are building a project in northern B.C. that's a community centre and.... The climate lens and what would be appropriate will be different from the climate lens on, say, investments in zero-emission buses, because that's a program. Those are different things. Your point—

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

The problem, Minister, is that no assessment is taking place. You've promised that there's going to be this action on greenhouse gas emissions and climate, and you've praised the U.S. for going big on tackling climate change, but I'm not convinced your government is.

Here we have only 10% of the projects your department funds that are subject to the climate lens assessment. None of the projects funded by the Canada Infrastructure Bank are assessed. It almost feels like the climate goals are just something in a throwaway line on the first page, and there's no accountability.

How can you assure Canadians that the $180 billion you're going to spend on infrastructure between now and 2030 isn't going to actually increase climate pollution?

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

The expectations for the Canada Infrastructure Bank include the GHG impacts and that we need to see reductions in emissions. If you even look at the categories we've created—such as clean power and public transit—across the board we're looking at investments and programs that are going to make a real difference in reducing emissions. We also need to quantify them. That is what the climate lens is right now, but it's more than that. They need to drive emission reductions.

That's a critical part of this. There is a process, including through Treasury Board, to get the information. That is the expectation they have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

We're now going to move on to the last set of questions in the second round.

Mr. Rogers, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister and officials.

Minister, I was a mayor and the president of the municipal association for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and a member of the board of directors of the FCM for four years. We often debated and called on the federal government for investments of this magnitude in infrastructure, and we didn't get a whole lot of support from the previous, Conservative government. The FCM put a major effort in and is delighted with the support it's received from our government since 2015.

Minister, access to high-speed Internet, particularly in rural Canada, is crucially important. It's really come to the fore during this COVID-19 period, which has forced people to work from home of course, and to do remote schooling, virtual medicine and a whole bunch of stuff.

The CIB has identified broadband as a priority investment area in terms of how it's going to help address this critical shortfall. I'd like you to comment on that for me, please.

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

As a former mayor, you know how important infrastructure is to the quality of life. Right now, if not the top priority, one of the absolute top priorities in terms of infrastructure investments has to be in broadband. It's not just a productivity issue; it's an equity issue. That's why our government is making historic investments in broadband. It's part of the infrastructure program I am responsible for.

The Canada Infrastructure Bank identified it as a key priority, so it is one of the priorities that's set out for investment in the next three years. It's $2 billion for large-scale broadband projects. We really need large-scale projects, because we need to connect a lot of people to high-speed broadband.

They have a longer-term goal. It's $3 billion for unserved and underserved communities. They're working with our government to identify opportunities, as well as with other governments. That's a real opportunity. It's all hands on deck when it comes to broadband, and we need to accelerate quickly. We've said we want to have all Canadians connected to broadband, and we need to do that as fast as possible.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Chair, if it's okay, I want to give Mr. El-Khoury my remaining time to ask a question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Absolutely. Thank you, Mr. Rogers.

Mr. El-Khoury, the floor is yours. You have about two and a half minutes.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to our Minister and our guests.

Madam Minister, the REM project is really important to Quebeckers.

Let me ask you one question, and I'd be grateful if you could give us a detailed explanation.

We have heard a lot of criticism, particularly from the Conservatives, that the Canada Infrastructure Bank is not doing anything. I'm surprised, because I represent a riding in the Montreal area and the REM transit system in Montreal is a major project. The Canada Infrastructure Bank is helping to finance the REM, a project that is moving forward and creating jobs.

I hope you can talk a little about the Canada Infrastructure Bank's involvement in the REM project and also about how the Conservatives are presenting it.

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I thank my colleague for the question.

I do not think it is just the Conservatives. The Bloc Québécois is also asking questions, wondering whether this is a good project, when people in Montreal and the Government of Quebec are telling me that it is a very important project to them. It is the biggest project for Montreal in the last 50 years.

Personally, I want to see the REM extended, and there is a good chance that it will happen.

Let me give you some figures. The REM is benefiting from a $1.3 billion investment from the Canada Infrastructure Bank. This project will build 26 stations over 67 kilometers. This means that 26 communities will be served by the REM. This is a major project.

One aspect that's really important to our government and to me is the number of tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions that are generated, and this project represents a reduction of 680,000 tonnes of those emissions over 25 years.

Also, as I said, we need jobs. This project is creating 34,000 jobs.

This is a very good example of how we can make a difference by working with the Canada Infrastructure Bank, with the provinces, like Quebec, with cities, like Montreal, and with the public.

It's not just about numbers, it's about people's lives. Imagine someone who has to get to work. They would not have to endure the many congestion problems that Montreal has. Using the REM would mean they would come home more quickly to be with their children.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Rogers and Mr. El-Khoury.

We're now going to move into our second hour.

We have Mr. Scheer, from the Conservative Party, for five minutes; Mr. El-Khoury for five minutes; Mr. Barsalou-Duval for two and a half minutes; Mr. Bachrach for two and a half minutes; Mr. Shipley, from the Conservatives, for five minutes; and we finish off with Mr. Sidhu, from the Liberal Party, once again, for five minutes.

Ms. McKenna, I understand that you have to go to another appointment, so thank you very much for your participation today.

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

We truly appreciate it. Well done.

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I appreciate all of your work.

Thanks very much to everyone.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you.

With that, we're going to start off with Mr. Scheer.

Mr. Scheer, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I think I'll just take a few seconds to highlight something the minister said. She said that the whole point of the Canada Infrastructure Bank was to get more infrastructure built, and so far it has completed zero projects. Compare that with the Conservative P3 fund, which actually successfully delivered projects. We were able to see the completion of 25 large-scale infrastructure projects in about seven and a half to eight years, depending on how you calculate if. If the Canada Infrastructure Bank is going to try to get more than that, then they're off to a very poor start.

Maybe the officials can help us out with some of the questions that the minister didn't want to answer. I'm hoping someone here can tell me. The minister pointed to the Réseau project in Montreal. Fine, we all know it was an existing project that would have been funded through other formulas, other envelopes of spending. The Canada Infrastructure Bank did not unlock anything, because those commitments were already made.

Other than the Réseau project, rounded to the nearest hundred million dollars, can someone tell me how much private sector investment the Canada Infrastructure Bank has secured so far?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Who would like to take that one?

[Kelly Gillis, Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada]

Thank you, Chair.

As the minister mentioned, in the REM project with the CDPQ, there has been a commitment of $3 billion by the Quebec pension plan. In a number of other projects that are under way right now, the CIB is in discussion with private partners for investments.

As for the follow-up question, I believe that the CIB officials are coming to the committee in a couple weeks, so I think a further discussion with them on the outlook for private investment would be completely appropriate.

I would like to correct some of the facts on P3 Canada. P3 Canada was devolved into Infrastructure Canada, so we are overseeing the 25 P3 agreements. Four of them have not yet reached completion, and two of them will reach completion this year. Infrastructure does take time to complete. They are ongoing and they are very good projects.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

I'm sure we can both agree that some may take several years, some may take four, some may take two and some may take eight, but surely you would agree with me that some of the projects under the old P3 Canada fund from start to finish took less than four years. Would you agree with that?

[Kelly Gillis]

I would have to confirm the facts on those particular timelines, because I know a number of them started beforehand, such as the one in Regina that began in 2013 and had two years of planning before it moved into the P3 fund for commitment and then completion.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Right, but as I mentioned, there are several projects here that, from start to finish, took fewer than four years. I can confirm that for you. I can save you the work there.

I want to clear. The Montreal project aside, because I'm not really sure that it's fair to include the Montreal project in what the Canada Infrastructure Bank has been able to unleash because it was already green-lit and committed to because the caisse's involvement had been already arranged. Basically the Canada Infrastructure Bank just displaced federal dollars that would have come through other channels.

The reason this is important is that this particular study is about the bank itself. The Auditor General is doing an investigation into mismanagement in other infrastructure envelopes. This study is narrowly focused on the Canada Infrastructure Bank.

This government took $35 billion in tax dollars and told all of us that with that $35 billion, they would get back at least $70 billion, and maybe even $105 billion. Depending on which day and how excited some of the officials were, we were told it was 11 times that, so we might get back over $380 billion worth of private sector investment.

I want to clarify this one more time. I'm sure that the CIB reports to the minister. It's been in operation for four years. Rounded to the nearest $100 million, if you take the Montreal project aside, how much private sector investment has this $35 billion resulted in?

[Kelly Gillis]

As I said right now, CDPQ were involved in the negotiations. They were involved for several months to restructure that particular transaction to be able to add value to it. That is a $3-billion commitment. For further discussions on closes and discussions with the private sector on what the outlook is for investment, I think that would be an appropriate conversation to have with the CIB when they come before you in a couple weeks from now.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

So you still can't give me a number for anything outside of Montreal. We will absolutely ask that of the officials. I had hoped that maybe the minister's officials would also know what was going on at the Canada Infrastructure Bank.