Evidence of meeting #19 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bank.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
Let me be clear: the Canada Infrastructure Bank does not have a mandate to privatize infrastructure or to sell assets.
None of the bank's projects are aimed at privatization and all of them are supported by public sponsors. The role of the bank is to help finance projects—
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
I understand, but if the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec decided to sell the REM to a foreign investor, could it be prevented from doing so?
Liberal
Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
Let me be clear again. The role of the Canada Infrastructure Bank is not to replace the Government of Quebec or the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec. I think you would really have a problem with the Bloc Québécois if that were the case.
It's about building more infrastructure and working with the provinces, as well as with Quebec—
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Madam Minister, you are not answering my question.
I was asking you whether the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec could decide to sell—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey
Folks, the interpreters are having a tough time when you talk over each other. I know from listening to the interpreter that it's very difficult to segregate who is speaking at one time. If we can try to give a breath or two before each of you speak, I'd appreciate that. It makes it a lot a easier on the interpreters.
Thank you.
Mr. Barsalou-Duval, go ahead.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Actually, I just wanted a yes or no answer to my question as to whether anything prevents the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec from selling the REM to a foreign investor.
Liberal
Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
I think you should talk to the Government of Quebec about that. The role of the Canada Infrastructure Bank is to help the Government of Quebec achieve its objectives. The Government of Quebec has said that we need more public transit in Montreal, and the REM is a major project for the government—
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
I understand. Thank you very much for your answer. However, earlier, in response to Ms. Jaczek's comments, you said that this could not lead to the privatization of infrastructure. What I see is that it could.
In 2017, the government, of which you were a member, had initially announced $1.68 billion in grants for the REM. Now you're looking for projects to justify the existence of the Canada Infrastructure Bank. So you have converted the $1.68 billion in grants into loans.
Do you think that Quebeckers are actually benefiting more from that?
Liberal
Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
Let me be clear, because this is important: the Canada Infrastructure Bank does not have a mandate to privatize infrastructure or to sell assets.
If I were to talk to the people of Montreal or the Government of Quebec, they would tell me that the REM is a great and good project, and they would ask me to do more. I have spoken with the Quebec Minister of Transport. I told him that there is an opportunity to work with the bank to extend the REM. So—
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you, Minister. I completely understand.
Liberal
Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
—I'm not sure why you think this project is not helping Montrealers. It reduces greenhouse gas emissions and congestion on the roads, and it creates good jobs. We are talking about 34,000 jobs in Quebec and Canada. It's a very good project.
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
What I was asking you is whether a loan is better than a grant. Your government provided a grant for the REM project, but in the end it became a loan through the Canada Infrastructure Bank.
Are we better off with a grant or a loan?
Liberal
Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
I am not going to comment on how the Canada Infrastructure Bank decides to finance projects. The point I want to make is that the bank favours projects that are—
Liberal
Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON
I am hearing the interpretation at the same volume as the speaker. It's impossible to understand what's going on.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey
Thank you.
Once again, if we can have one speaker at a time it makes it a lot easier for the interpreters.
Ms. Jaczek, would that make it a lot easier to decipher who is speaking through interpretation?
Thank you.
Minister McKenna, you have the floor. Go ahead.
Liberal
Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
The Canada Infrastructure Bank plays a very important role in financing innovative projects and their progress. The government might invest as well. The role of the Canada Infrastructure Bank is to help build more infrastructure. In this regard, the five priorities I mentioned are very important.
I am also thinking of the Bloc Québécois—
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Madam Minister, I would like to know one thing about your priorities. You often talk about the independence of the Canada Infrastructure Bank. However, I have the impression that its priorities are similar to those of the government.
Who decided those priorities, you or the Canada Infrastructure Bank? Is the bank truly independent?
Liberal
Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
The Government of Canada decides those priorities. I would be pleased to show you the mandate letter that sets out those priorities. The $35-billion investment comes from taxpayers' money, but the Canada Infrastructure Bank decides how the projects are funded.
I have given the Canada Infrastructure Bank a lot of leeway so that it can make decisions on major projects. I don't want to make decisions on a project-by-project basis. I don't think that's a good idea. So I've been working with the Canada Infrastructure Bank to make sure that it makes decisions about the projects.
Having said that, we have priorities. We have a plan to achieve net-zero emissions within 25 years, and the Canada Infrastructure Bank has to be part of that. And of course we want to encourage growth. We will create jobs and grow our economy. It's very important that the Canada Infrastructure Bank plays a role in those priorities.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey
Thank you, Minister McKenna.
We're now going to move on to the NDP.
Mr. Bachrach, you have the floor for six minutes.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Welcome, Minister McKenna. It's good to see you again.
Picking up on this topic of privatization, if a private partner invests in the construction of a project and then is allowed to charge user fees to the Canadian citizens who use that infrastructure, is that not a form of privatization?
Liberal
Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
First of all, it's very nice to see the member. I know that the member opposite cares greatly about getting good infrastructure built for Canadians, and about our priorities of creating jobs, tackling climate change, and building more inclusive communities.
The whole role of the Canada Infrastructure Bank is to get more infrastructure built. Canadians are paying for infrastructure. We pay for infrastructure through our taxes. We make many investments in infrastructure. The opportunity here with the Canada Infrastructure Bank is to really look at how we can get more built, because the infrastructure deficit or gap or whatever you call it is huge in our country.
I know that because economists tell us that, but I also know that because if I go to any mayor or any premier, they will tell me their list of infrastructure projects, and we have an opportunity to use workers' dollars.
When you think about the Caisse de dépôt, that's Quebec workers' dollars at work to build more infrastructure for Canadians. I would say that's a good thing. The workers get a return on their investment. This is about their retirement.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
But we're talking about not just institutional investors but also private investors, which the CIB has tried to target.
In the past, the CIB has claimed that it's aiming to provide between 7% and 9% returns to investors. Where do these returns come from, if not from Canadian users of public infrastructure?
Liberal
Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
As I said, let's not misunderstand the role of the Canada Infrastructure Bank. It really is there working in partnership with, say, the Province of Quebec. They decided they wanted to do the REM. They came up with an arrangement, and the Canada Infrastructure Bank was able to, with innovative financing, play a role in a project that's making a huge difference.
You can say the same about Alberta. There's an irrigation project. It's really up to the partners, which, in many cases, are the provinces. They want to work with the Canada Infrastructure Bank in a model that makes sense for the people in their province. I think it is really important that you have the public sector regulating and determining the fees and being the ones who retain control.
This is really about looking at what the opportunities are, because right now—let's just be clear—Canadian workers' dollars are building infrastructure in Australia and across the world.
I think we also want to make sure that we're benefiting from those workers' savings, and that those help with their retirement. But, as I said, they also help with a whole range of other issues, including making sure that we build clean power, that we get more public—
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Again, Minister, you're talking about institutional investors. Mr. Scheer was talking about the CIB's stated goal of bringing in private investment, and I believe that's where the concern about privatization lies. If you're shifting away from private investment, then some of those concerns about privatization are probably of less concern.
I'm going to move on.
You were quoted in iPolitics in November 2019 as saying that your priority is to apply a “climate lens on everything we do, and infrastructure has to be at the top of that list”.
Do you stand by that priority?