Transport Committee on March 11th, 2021

[An hon. member]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

That's not a point of order, Mr. Scheer. That's actually debate, so—

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Can I please rise on a point of order, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Mr. Bittle, go ahead on a point of order.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

This is now the second time that Mr. Scheer has interrupted. I would think that as the former Speaker of the House and the former Leader of the Opposition he would know the Standing Orders better than most of us.

I call on him to apologize. This interruption isn't good for the translation; it's clearly not good for the debate and it's a violation of the Standing Orders. If he doesn't like what's being said, he's had an opportunity to speak and will have another opportunity again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Bittle.

Mr. Scheer.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

I can respond to that. I think you wouldn't need to have points of order raised if Liberals didn't bring up—

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

That's not a point of order. That's a point of debate.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

I've raised a point of order—

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Mr. Scheer, that's enough.

We're going to go back to Mr. El-Khoury.

Mr. El-Khoury, you have the floor. Go ahead.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

I am waiting for an answer from Dr. Riordan and from Madam Skivsky.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Mr. Riordan, go ahead, and then we'll go to Ms. Skivsky.

Mr. Riordan, you have the floor.

[Dr. Ryan Riordan]

Thank you very much for the question. That was an interesting exchange.

I hope I remember the question. I think it was about some examples of projects that can help catalyze investments in the economy and how the Infrastructure Bank can help those.

One of the points that came out of our capital mobilization plan was the building sector. There, I think, the Canada Infrastructure Bank and public-private partnerships, but also just innovative financial solutions, can really help.

There's this odd conundrum that it's both environmentally and economically good for people to invest in wrapping their house in a warm jacket in this retrofitting, let's say, yet people seem not to do that. Institutions like the Canada Infrastructure Bank can nudge people, either financially or behaviourally, towards making decisions that—for reasons even I as an economist don't understand—people don't tend to make. I think that's a really clear example of it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Riordan.

We go now to Ms. Skivsky.

[Sandra Skivsky]

Dr. Riordan is trying to refer to the rational economic man, which does not exist.

On the types of projects, other than what has already been mentioned in terms of building, there are green building technologies and permeable paving types of applications, like there are for water management, but there are also simple projects for hospitals and health care. If there's anything that the last year has pointed out to us, it's some of what we lack in the area of long-term care and other health care types of facilities. There are also community centres. They all create benefit for local areas, as well as the roads and the broadband.

My point was that there has to be this long-term planning for these sorts of mega transformative projects, but there also has to be a shorter-term scale for projects that go up in a year or two years and aren't quite so extensive but still have that positive impact on that community and the quality of life for the families who live there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Ms. Skivsky.

Mr. El-Khoury.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

The witnesses we had at our first meeting on this study, including Mr. Bain from Concert Infrastructure, talked about the fact that critical infrastructure projects don't get built overnight. However, we know that some projects can be done fairly quickly. In fact, our government is already supporting thousands of these types of project.

Could you talk about the many complexities of major infrastructure projects?

My question is for all the witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

I do apologize, Mr. El-Khoury. Your time is at the limit.

For those witnesses, if you want to try to slide part of your answer to that into some of your answers you're going to have for future questioners, that would be wonderful.

I'm now going to move on to our last round, and yes, I am going to try to get through it. Unfortunately, that little exchange did take some time off, but I'm going to try to get through the next round.

We have, first off, Mr. Soroka, who is going to be up for five minutes, followed by Mr. Fillmore, and then we'll have two and a half minutes each for Mr. Barsalou-Duval and Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Soroka, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I don't blame you: It's shameful when the Liberals start talking about what is false information and deflecting their lack of ability to get projects completed.

With that, my question goes to Chief Gale.

On Tuesday, we heard from a representative from the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business who mentioned that there are actually 40 shovel-ready projects in indigenous communities across Canada. It sounds like many indigenous communities are putting applications through, but not getting investments.

Could you comment on why this is happening?

[Chief Sharleen Gale]

I am going to ask my colleague, Niilo, who works directly with our communities as the executive director of our organization.

[Niilo Edwards]

Thank you.

I think there are a couple of ways to answer that.

There are varying sizes and scales of projects. With respect to the comments that Chief Gale has made and the mandate of our organization, we're focused on projects with a capital cost of $100 million or more. These are large-scale industrial infrastructure and natural resource projects.

Certainly there are a number of smaller projects across the country that are very meaningful and very impactful for indigenous communities. These projects relate to community infrastructure primarily. There are some economic development projects of course.

When we're looking at community infrastructure, we need to find a better way to deliver projects on tighter timelines for more effective costs. One of the ways we can do that is to empower indigenous communities to have the tools and the capacity to self-deliver projects because, at the end of the day, our members know what is most important for their communities. There are certain initiatives, like the First Nations Infrastructure Institute, that are up and coming and will alleviate some of this backlog. We're certainly watching that unfold.

I do want to take just a moment to draw a distinction here. We see a tie-in between indigenous participation in major projects and community infrastructure. There is the ability for indigenous communities to leverage their economic participation in these major projects to secure those revenue streams and to then deliver community infrastructure using the proceeds from their involvement as equity owners. That's certainly something we're looking at as an organization.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Edwards.

Mr. Soroka.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

That's quite interesting that you talk about how they can leverage different areas in working towards these projects getting completed.

Do you think that some of the projects maybe don't rate high enough and that's why they don't tick enough boxes—meaning they don't hit the environmental or social side of this—and they're not able to get these projects, or even applications, started?

[Niilo Edwards]

Without knowing the details I can't comment on a project-specific basis. I can tell you that there is a huge capacity in indigenous communities when it comes to getting projects off the ground. Our organization exists to help fill some of those gaps, but when you're dealing with an infrastructure deficit in indigenous communities of between $30 and $40 billion nationally, we've got some work to do.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Chair, my next question deals more with Mapleton.

I know that Mr. Ramsay spoke about it, but I'm not certain if anyone has more expertise as to why that municipal government decided not to go with that water treatment plant. Was it because of their borrowing capacity, because they could borrow cheaper? Was it that the price was getting too high if they went public?

I'm not certain which one of the witnesses would be able to speak on that. Is there anyone?