Transport Committee on April 15th, 2021

[Paul Kariya]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

I don't know the exact speeds offhand, what I do know is that, in terms of service, it goes from absolutely abysmal—no service—to, at times, pretty decent service. Useful tools like Internet in schools are not possible in a number of the communities because the service isn't there. Everyone's really keen about things like virtual doctors, but those aren't available because there is no service. It's a bit of a hodge-podge of service availability, but generally and unfortunately, it's poor.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Kariya.

The federal government has committed to delivering high-speed Internet, and I believe the minimum standard is 50 down, 10 up. They've committed to delivering that standard to 98% of Canadians by 2026. I wonder if Coastal First Nations is concerned that the remaining 2% could be in our region. on the north coast in small, remote indigenous communities.

[Paul Kariya]

Yes, thank you.

Certainly it's a concern, but let me respond in two stages. We have to bring the game up to where communities have basic service. That's what we're struggling with with a number of the communities on the north and central coast of British Columbia. We would love to be discussing and arguing about getting it up to that better level, but we're pretty basic right now.

While we appreciate the government programming, a big concern is the way it's been set up, this targeted infrastructure program that wants to get the business community involved in providing service—and everyone's for that. I think there was a P3 question earlier. The concern is that, in that business case approach, we're leaving it open to the big service providers and others so that they're chasing the business case and not the values. That means they get to pick the winners and losers, and again, some of the most difficult communities to reach will remain underserved because they don't provide that opportunity to make a buck.

However, these are Canadians. This is Canada. We need to make sure that the level of service to all our citizens, including the most remote and difficult first nations communities, reaches a basic level.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I really appreciate that answer, Mr. Kariya, it reflects my observation, which is that when the private sector is relied on to serve rural communities with services like broadband, there has to be a business case. The most densely populated areas, of course, get service first, leaving people in the most sparsely populated areas at the end of the line.

I'm wondering if you could reflect a bit on what a better model needs to look like, and how we get these very small communities like Klemtu, Hartley Bay and others in the region I represent, connected to even basic service.

[Paul Kariya]

Thank you.

I think that working together is really important. In this band of communities that you're aware of, which we represent, those nine communities, there are some larger groupings and then some very small ones, which you've mentioned. If we can work together and maybe be a broad service provider that scales up, that permits the possibility of technicians and technical people to be shared, I think that's the only way to do this.

Indeed, that's the premise of Coastal First Nations. We're a not-for-profit owned by our member nations. We have no skin in the game, so to speak. We are not the rights and title holder. Those are the nations, but we provide this service of bringing people together. I think that scaling-up opportunity is a practical way to go for both senior governments and funders, and maybe even the private sector.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thanks for that, Mr. Kariya.

You mentioned the universal broadband fund in your remarks and the fact that the application process landed in communities at the same time as they were scrambling to deal with the impact of the pandemic.

When it comes to that last-mile infrastructure that's going to be so critical for communities to tap into the connected coast project, which is a tremendously exciting infrastructure project on the north coast, are you pushing the federal government to extend the deadline to reopen the universal broadband fund or to create some other model that allows communities to get that vital infrastructure that last bit of the way?

[Paul Kariya]

Let me answer it this way, Mr. Bachrach. If we truly are going to take a reconciliation approach, then why are we placed into a competitive situation such that, if for whatever unforeseen reason we don't get our applications in or if we are the smallest incapable nation—incapable only because of the lack of people and timing—and we are pitted against larger better-serviced nations, we are then told we didn't make the cut-off, so sorry but there's no more funding?

I don't think that's the way to approach this in a country like Canada. I don't think this is the way to approach a basic service such as last-mile connection to the backbone.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Kariya.

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Baldinelli, this is the second round. You have the floor for five minutes.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Again, thank you to the witnesses.

As I indicated just a little bit earlier, I was going to go with my first question to the regional chair, Mr. Bradley. He was discussing the region's needs in Niagara and the priority areas being affordable housing, the trade corridor, the free trade zone, the waste-water facility and broadband. During his comments he mentioned the impediment of ambiguous criteria for the infrastructure programs and the need for additional flexibilities.

With regard to the, I believe, $130-million waste-water facility that's going to be built in south Niagara, has the region formally submitted an application? Has it already been speaking with government officials on that and are there concerns at present?

[Jim Bradley]

The answer is yes, we have been in communication with federal authorities on this. They are aware of our need for funding from the federal government.

I mentioned that it was somewhat ambiguous. The criteria said if you wanted the green fund—which you would think this would be part of—it was for rehabilitation purposes or upgrades. Well, this is a brand new plant. If I want to interpret that appropriately for funding, I would say it's an upgrade or an improvement to the overall system of treating waste water. If it could be defined in that particular way, it could be eligible for funding. Certainly affording any project in the hundreds of millions of dollars would present a major challenge for a local municipality or a regional municipality. That is why we are seeking funding for it.

There are a couple of purposes there, and the councillor and Mayor Sendzik spoke about the need for the Great Lakes. As you know, from time to time when there's a major storm, waste-water treatment plants across the country tend to have to open up and “let 'er rip” to put it bluntly, because they cannot take the capacity—the volume of water coming into the existing waste-water plants.

Environmentally speaking, this would be a project that would benefit the environment—the Niagara River in this case and ultimately the Great Lakes. Also, it would accommodate growth, including the new hospital in Niagara Falls, of which portions have received early approval. Having this new waste-water plant available would allow that to proceed and would allow development around the hospital, which will inevitably come, to proceed as well.

Being able to define that as an improvement to the overall waste-water system as opposed to strictly an upgrade or an improvement to an existing facility would be very beneficial.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I concur with that assessment. I think it is vitally important to alleviate the stress that is put on facilities such as those in north Niagara and in Fort Erie and to help facilitate not only the $130-million hospital that will be built but also development in the entire south Niagara area, especially with the trade corridor and the free trade zone. I wish you good luck in working with government officials to ensure that we get the flexibility that is required in terms of that program.

Second, Chair, I'd like to go to Councillor Foster and talk about broadband in Niagara. I know that in January, through SWIFT, there was an announcement of about $21.2 million of broadband upgrades connecting another 5,629 homes. That included $8.8 million—$4.4 million from the province and $4.4 million from the federal government. Despite that, we're still talking about 54% being underserviced in our region alone.

Mr. Foster, in terms of that, when we go forward with a project such as this, which brought in another $12.4 million leveraged from the private sector, how long would that project take from the initial seeking of provincial and federal support to the rollout and announcement in January?

[Rob Foster]

Through you, Mr. Chair, the reality is, with SWIFT and these other programs we have in place, that it is a long process that we go through. As you know, Niagara has been a member of SWIFT right from the start. The $21.2 million that came onto the table in January has been an awful lot of work that we've had to progress through and move forward with. As you also know, it has only touched a piece of what it is we need to do within Niagara.

By the way, I'm quite impressed with everybody else's remarks today. This is a common theme throughout the country. The rural broadband is one of those things that we need to be focusing in on to make sure we have adequate funding in place. We need to make sure—and going back to one of the earlier topics—about the flexibility that's coming into place. We seem to get caught up in red tape, whether it's on the provincial or the federal side of things, when it comes to some of these programs as we move along.

Long story short, I'm very pleased with the federal investments in this, and I am looking forward to solving some of these problems over the next couple of years.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Foster and Mr. Baldinelli.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Foster.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

It's much appreciated.

We're now going to move on to our next speaker for five minutes.

Mr. Sidhu, you have the floor.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and to our distinguished witnesses who are on our panel today.

Mr. Kariya, you mentioned connectivity in your opening remarks. To my understanding, we are on track to connect roughly 98% of Canadians by 2026. I know that this is very near and dear to the minister. There is definitely lots of good work being done, and I understand many communities are excited to be connected.

Mr. Kariya, just last week, our government, with the Government of B.C., committed to making the needed investments in the critical cellular infrastructure that will improve safety along Highway 16, also known as the Highway of Tears. Solving the problem of cellular gaps between communities along Highway 16 was among the Highway of Tears symposium report's 33 recommendations aimed at enhancing safety for indigenous women and girls.

Can you discuss the impact of improving connectivity along this highway and particularly how this investment will improve the safety of women, especially indigenous women?

[Paul Kariya]

I think this area of Highway 16 leading into Prince Rupert from across the middle north of B.C. is absolutely important. I think the investment made and the results that could come from that are welcome, certainly from our nations that are all on the coast—the terminus end of that highway, if you will, the Highway of Tears. This would be very welcome. Thank you.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Thank you for that, Mr. Kariya

Mr. Kariya, yesterday Minister McKenna announced $1.5 billion in funding for green and inclusive buildings. I know in my riding, these buildings, such as our local library and other community rec centres, help address the social, physical and mental well-being of my constituents.

Can you speak to the importance of these types of investments in your region and how they will help create good jobs and build a greener future for all Canadians?

[Paul Kariya]

I will maybe answer it this way. In terms of the communities that I work for through CFN, sadly, they are among the worst in terms of greenhouse gas emissions—through no fault of their own. We are working on getting off diesel programs, and insulation for housing and all of that. It really does require a coordinated effort.

The work that your colleagues, Minister McKenna and Minister Wilkinson, are doing is very much appreciated, but there is so much more that needs to be done in this coordination. There's no point in putting heat pumps into homes that are so poorly put together that it makes no sense to do that. It makes little sense to do things in an ad hoc way.

I think it's by working through collectives like Coastal First Nations that we can achieve some of this. I don't say that because I work for that outfit. We are mandated by our chiefs and leaders to take that kind of position. We welcome the initiatives, but continue to work through us in a stronger way.

Thank you.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

I appreciate that. Definitely, there's lots to be done. I agree with you.

Mr. Foster, Minister McKenna has been working extremely hard to support transit projects across the country. There's quite a significant number of transit funding commitments.

How are you utilizing the transit funds that have been announced?

[Jim Bradley]

We find the fund to be very helpful to us. We're in the process now of establishing a region-wide transit service, inter-regional, intercity and intertown. The federal funds have enabled us to move forward in that regard. We already have a basic service.

Our local municipalities, at least three or four of the larger ones, have bus service at the present time. They certainly utilize the funds to an even greater extent than the region. Now that the region is expanding into intermunicipal service and service that we hope will some day bring GO Transit down our way, we find these funds to be extremely useful.

We would not be able to expand our service as quickly, as extensively or as environmentally sensitively without the funding that's coming from senior levels of government, including the federal government. We would welcome a continuation of funding in that regard.

Even though I know there are times when you have to have the funding come through provincial governments, one of the things we always want to ensure is that, when funding comes through provincial governments—to any municipality—the funding from the federal government actually makes its way down through the province to the local governments, because we don't want it to be lost somewhere along the way.

I haven't seen any examples where that's the case, so thumbs-up to that. Continue sending the money, and we always welcome more. Local municipalities appreciate the kind of funding you're providing, and we hope it will continue well into the future.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Bradley, and Mr. Sidhu.

We're now going to move to our next set of questions from the Bloc Québécois. We have Mr. Barsalou-Duval, for two and a half minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Demers, we have noticed that one part of the investing in Canada plan refers to something interesting in terms of allowing municipalities to prepare for disasters and climate change. However, the program requires a minimum investment of $20 million from municipalities.

Do you think this is a problem for smaller municipalities? Is there any chance that they will be able to invest that amount in a project?

[Jacques Demers]

You are quite right. We even forget how Quebec was built.

Quebec has 1,108 municipalities. We can talk about large and small municipalities, but we forget that barely 100 municipalities have more than 20,000 inhabitants. Only 10 municipalities have more than 100,000 inhabitants.

My municipality, Sainte-Catherine-de-Hatley, has 2,600 inhabitants. Our budget is about $3.5 million. It has just passed the $3 million mark. Now, municipalities are being asked if they can afford to invest $20 million. My municipality is in the top third of municipalities in Quebec. This shows how unreasonable the requested investment is.

The federal government has just changed its definition of large and small municipalities. Before that, large municipalities were those with 250,000 inhabitants or more. That excluded everyone, or almost everyone. They improved things by reducing the population to about 100,000.

Even across Canada, there are very few large municipalities. I don't understand why the numbers are set so high. They don't match the investments we are able to make. So we understand why the government is targeting the larger communities.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Demers.

We often hear about problems with access to poles for Internet connection.

Are there things the federal government could do to ensure that there are fewer obstacles to the deployment of the Internet in the regions?