Transport Committee on April 15th, 2021

[Jacques Demers]

What I hear in Quebec is that it seems to be finally moving forward. A beneficial agreement has just been signed between the federal and provincial governments, announcing $846 million. I think we are making progress.

I can complain about projects that I think should be moving faster. However, I still believe in the one providing Internet connection. I think Quebec will have about 30,000 homes left to connect by the end of 2022. According to the current program, we will be able to connect everyone with fibre optics. That is good news.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Demers and Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

We'll now move on to our next speaker, Ms. Kusie.

Taylor, I'm just kidding.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

That's a good one, Mr. Chair. It's good to see you have a sense of humour, as I sit here and steam.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Mr. Bachrach, you have the floor for two and a half minutes. Go ahead.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you very much.

I have one more question for Mr. Kariya, picking up where I left off last round.

I had a conversation with the Nuxalk recently, and they brought an interesting issue to my attention about IT capacity in indigenous communities. As we see more and more communities getting access to high-speed Internet and as many indigenous nations have visions for autonomy and ownership of those services, it feels like there's a gap in the IT service capacity within communities, especially in the transition to these more improved services. I know the block funding for reserve communities from ISC is very constrained.

Mr. Kariya, I wonder if you could speak to any capacity challenges that might exist for first nations in northwest B.C. during this transition as we move towards communities having broadband access.

[Paul Kariya]

As others have commented, the bigger backbone that's going to be laid—a fibre optic cable up the coast that's cost-shared between the federal and provincial governments—is terrific. That's absolutely necessary. However, when it comes to shore—and it will link all of our communities to that—the problem becomes what happens for the last mile. The funding for that is quite confused, and what is available tends to be snapped up by the private sector. Sadly, the smart operators are just using government funding and saving their own for other things. Also, as I said earlier, for the nations, and particularly the smaller ones, it becomes a competitive process. They work against each other rather than together to get a proper last-mile connection.

What you further asked about is the second part of this. Even if you get the connection, if you don't have people trained up in the capacity to utilize and maximize, it's a tool that's suboptimally used. We do need funding support to make sure that people are trained and prepared. Again, it's not just a matter of throwing out a few bucks and saying we'll put them in a university course. That's not the way it works. Everybody knows that for first nation communities to come out of the dark period of time in our history, it's about more than that.

We're prepared as CFN to work with our member Nuxalk and others to get that kind of training and capacity, but we need support.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Kariya and Mr. Bachrach.

We're now going to the Conservatives.

Ms. Kusie, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses for being here.

My first question is for the representatives from the Fédération québécoise des municipalités.

The investing in Canada plan, which was launched in budget 2016, has five components: public transit, green infrastructure, social infrastructure, trade and transportation, and rural and northern communities.

It seems to me that, although the plan details different modes of transportation, there is a sort of disconnect with transportation in rural areas. How does the new plan address public transit in rural Canada?

What steps must the government take to improve transportation in rural Canada?

[Jacques Demers]

Thank you very much for opening that door.

It is really interesting, especially after the problem we have recently experienced in the Gaspé. I will let Mr. Boulet explain the issue, since he is very familiar with it.

[David Boulet]

In terms of the investing in Canada plan, you know that infrastructure programs in Quebec often take the form of bilateral agreements with Canada. We still want some of the money to be in agreements so that it goes to the communities and that governments work together so that the programs can be put in place quickly, especially in rural communities.

Transportation in remote or sparsely populated areas is certainly a recurring problem in most regions of Quebec. In our opinion, the federal government must assume some of the responsibilities related to transportation. The Gaspé is a good example. We were talking about road transportation in the Gaspé earlier, but investments were made in its railway for several years, until it was taken over mostly by the provincial government, which now wants to restore the line to the tip of the peninsula. This is the kind of issue to which the federal government needs to commit in order to ensure that the sectors have the funding they need.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

May I continue, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Yes, go ahead, Ms. Kusie.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

My next question is about the federal gas tax fund. It's a permanent source of funding that is paid twice a year to the provinces and territories. They receive two payments per year. Municipalities determine which projects they want to prioritize and have a great deal of flexibility in how they use the funds. They can bank the funds or use them as collateral for loans, as well as pool them.

However, it sometimes seems difficult to determine which projects municipalities can use the funds for and which are not eligible.

Do you think the categories of eligible infrastructure projects have to be expanded?

[Jacques Demers]

You are absolutely right. They must be expanded. We cannot be limited in the use of that money, all the more so now the government has decided to make more significant investments. We must ensure that we use that money well.

As I was saying earlier, once we finish repairing all the water projects, like sewers, we move to roads, but once that is done, we have buildings to renovate and other major investments to make. We should also include dams. We want to protect waterways more and more in order to prevent flooding. We have to protect ourselves against that and it requires major municipal investments.

So, yes, let's expand the criteria. That's all we are asking. We simply want to be able to use those funds for municipal purposes, as the program should allow.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

What types of projects should be eligible for the federal gas tax fund, but are currently not?

[Jacques Demers]

Municipal buildings, fire stations and community halls are some examples. Also dams, which are major infrastructures that are very expensive. That would be a good place to invest that money. It seems to me that they are exactly the kind of investments that the feds were looking at, namely municipal investments in municipal infrastructures. We understand the framework they want for the program. We agree with staying within that framework, but we are looking at projects that will really be of use for everyone.

It is a pity, because currently, some municipalities are returning money to the federal government and using their residents' property taxes instead. If those people knew that the federal money coming to them was being returned and the difference was being made up out of their pockets, they would not be happy. It's an easy problem to solve, as I see it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Demers.

Thank you, Mrs. Kusie.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Demers and Mr. Boulet.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Now we have our next Liberal speaker, Ms. Jaczek.

I sense this is going to be somewhat of a reunion here between two former provincial ministers.

Ms. Jaczek, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I certainly appreciate all the testimony from all the witnesses.

The topic of the hour does seem to be connectivity and access for all Canadians to high-speed Internet.

I am on the industry, science and technology committee. We have been studying the accessibility and affordability of high-speed Internet in some detail, so I am well aware of the fact that our government has, since 2015, committed to an investment of some $6.2 billion—98% by 2026—in terms of ensuring connectivity for all Canadians.

It's all very well, of course, to make these big announcements. The purpose here today is to try to understand how these projects are actually going to be actioned and what your experience is on the ground.

I would like to turn to my former colleague, Chair Bradley. We were together for more than 10 years in the Ontario legislature.

I have a really friendly question to start off with, Jim. I'm sure you are embracing all this new technology with your usual enthusiasm.

[Jim Bradley]

The answer to that is yes. The chair has had to remind me to unmute myself only twice out of three times, so that is the case. We do appreciate it.

We have noted that it's particularly important during the period of COVID-19, where people are reliant upon the Internet. They're reliant upon broadband to make sure that there is that connectivity. While it's fine in the large urban centres, in the more rural parts—of Niagara, for instance—it's a major challenge.

I'll ask Councillor Foster to elaborate on that as well.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you, Chair Bradley.

Councillor Foster, you did talk about difficulty in navigating the application process and so on.

In York region, where my riding is situated, the region has taken the lead in terms of trying to assist some of the smaller municipalities within York region with the whole application process on behalf of some of their residents. I do know that there is something called the pathfinder process that apparently assists.

Could you describe how things are working in Niagara region?

[Rob Foster]

Thank you for the question.

I also happen to be sitting on the board of SWIFT in Ontario and on the AMO board, along with Graydon. Of course, the whole topic of broadband comes up over and over again.

I like the SWIFT model that we've been following. It is tying together municipal and the two upper levels of government to have a specific program in place. If I can be blunt, the big thing out of this is that the coordination effort needs to go on amongst all of the partners as we move along. You mentioned yourself that a decent amount of money has been put into the system. I know that we, here in Niagara, as well as the Province of Ontario, have been looking at things.

There are so many different programs that seem to be coming in front of municipalities. I happen to know that some of our lower tiers are out actively going after other funding programs. It's adding confusion to the way some of these partnerships are coming into play. I am looking at a well-rounded, coordinated effort that needs to go on.

I hope that answers your questions, Madam.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I was just wondering if you had heard of the pathfinder. It's supposed to assist municipalities in the process.

[Rob Foster]

Yes, we have. Taking a look at what's happening with Niagara region, the reality is that we were early adopters of the SWIFT program, so we've been actively participating within that. No, we haven't been active within that area.