Evidence of meeting #29 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
Environmental impacts are another component of Bill C-69. I understand that the Yukon and Northwest Territories have large caribou herds that migrate across the north.
What can be done to protect the caribou herds that migrate along the proposed railway route?
Founder and Chairman, Alaska - Alberta Railway Development Corporation
There are several things that are being done.
We have a master agreement with Alaska Railroad and we're partners, so in effect we're already operating up north, and some of the mitigation practices we're getting from them. We're also looking at mitigation practices that were in the Middle East in order to preserve camel herds.
You have certain numbers of bridges that you could build specifically for wildlife. You can have a kind of angular approach as opposed to just straight lines, which tend to confuse the caribou.
All of this is under development with engineering, but it's going to be substantial in terms of how little impact we're going to have once this is built.
JP, do you want to add anything?
President, Canada, Alaska - Alberta Railway Development Corporation
The only other thing I would add is that this is a multi-cargo rail line. Bitumen will be part of it.
In partly meeting the highest standards and offsets in GHGs, we look at surcharges, to support, for instance, the indigenous leadership, the guardians program and green energy projects.
To go back to having indigenous people on the ground all the time, helping us direct the way we build this project, they understand where the caribou movements are, where to put gates and overpasses.
There is technology on a long line that can signal to animals the presence of oncoming trains, by creating noises, as an example, to scare caribou. We're looking at all of the technologies. There is a lot out there, and we will implement everything we possibly can, because it's important to our indigenous partners and it's important to us.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey
Thank you, Mr. Gladu and Mr. McCoshen, and Mr. Kram.
We're now going to move on to the Liberals, with Mr. El-Khoury for six minutes.
Liberal
Fayçal El-Khoury Liberal Laval—Les Îles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon to our guests.
Ms. Saxe, you are a civil engineer, so I would like to talk about social infrastructure. The government has adopted existing programs to meet the needs of communities in these difficult times, during the COVID-19 pandemic.
We have made municipal and provincial buildings eligible for the new COVID-19 resilience component. Minister McKenna has already approved hundreds of projects under this component, such as hospital and school renovations.
Can you speak to the importance of social infrastructure so that all levels of government work together to serve Canadians from coast to coast to coast?
Assistant Professor, Department of Civil and Mineral Engineering, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Thank you. I was just listening to the end of the interpretation and then I was on mute.
As we've seen over the last year and a half, social infrastructure is particularly important to how we function as a country. We need good hospitals and good schools, and we also need the ability to reach them.
It has been exciting to see the announcements of new funding for new infrastructure over the last several months, but there's still a lot more we need to do.
I'm hoping to see over the coming years more investment in infrastructure projects that combine multiple functions. Traditionally, we have looked at our social infrastructure, things such as schools, community centres, sports fields and police stations, as single-use projects.
As we move forward to the challenges of the 21st century and the increasingly competitive nature of our use of land, more people needing more things and less space, I'm hoping to see us develop putting more things together.
It could be a school that's also a community centre, and on top of it, places where people can live; or a police station that's not just one floor but has many uses in the same location. This is one of the biggest improvements I'm hoping to see in social infrastructure in the coming future.
Also, a question that applies to social infrastructure spaces as well as all infrastructure is how can we repurpose what we already have to deliver more effectively on what we need? The things that we needed 50 years ago when we built much of our infrastructure are quite different from what we need now.
Liberal
Fayçal El-Khoury Liberal Laval—Les Îles, QC
Mr. D'Angelo, the social inequalities that exist in our communities have been exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic. How can infrastructure investments help to address these systematic inequalities?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Urban Transit Association
Thank you for the question.
For people who live too far from work or school and can't walk or bike to work or school, but whose income is too low to own a car, public transit is the only mobility option. Public transit is essential for many seniors, people with disabilities, and everyone doing essential work during the pandemic. Public transit provides many people with access to employment and education.
I'm also very happy to say that many transit systems across the country have assisted in supporting vaccination programs, retrofitting their buses, and bringing the vehicles to where people need them, while connecting folks to essential jobs.
What we don't want to have and what we have avoided in the transit industry is a nurse after a 12-hour shift wondering if the bus will be there on time, or a grocery store worker finishing their shift worrying about being late and what will happen. Transit has had their back throughout the pandemic.
Thank you.
Liberal
Fayçal El-Khoury Liberal Laval—Les Îles, QC
Mr. D'Angelo, you spoke in your presentation about addressing climate change. My question is for you and the other witnesses.
How do you see Canada's future in light of the recommendations for our government's commitment to invest in green infrastructure?
Do you find that clients, particularly those in the private sector, are having difficulty understanding these recommendations? Can the price change their opinion?
Can you illustrate this point?
Liberal
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Urban Transit Association
Before the COVID-19 pandemic, public transit reduced pollutant emissions by more than 14 million tonnes a year. This was equivalent to emissions from three million cars. Public transit also helps reduce urban congestion and sprawl.
I'll now give the floor to the other witnesses so they can also weigh in.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey
Thank you, Mr. D'Angelo.
Mr. El-Khoury, your time is up, so I'm going to go on to the next witness. Hopefully, if other witnesses have some other comments to make on that, they can make them within their answers to other questions.
Thank you, Mr. El-Khoury.
With that, I'm going to move on to Mr. Barsalou-Duval of the Bloc Québécois for six minutes.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. D'Angelo, I was interested to hear you compare how different provinces use infrastructure funds in your opening remarks earlier. You mentioned that often in the less urban provinces where the population density is lower, there is money that is not being used. If we were to analyze this, we would probably find that the same thing can happen within the same province or territory. In Quebec, for example, population density isn't the same everywhere: there are large cities, but also rural areas where public transit services are virtually non-existent.
On the one hand, what can be done to make public transit available to people in these communities?
On the other, what can be done to ensure that unused funds aren't lost, which is important?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Urban Transit Association
It's very important that all communities have access to federal funding to improve public transit service.
I'm very pleased that the federal government has been negotiating with Quebec for a long time on how best to deliver programs. The small communities fund is distributed by a provincial agency. So there may be options for—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey
Mr. D'Angelo, could I step in for just a second?
With the interpretation, we're getting both English and French at the same volume.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Urban Transit Association
I'm sorry, that's my fault. I'll start again.
The federal government has been negotiating with Quebec for a long time to find the best way to deliver programs. So it's very important that small communities have access to the same funds as big cities.
We would have no problem with a similar agreement in Quebec with a provincial agency that would distribute monies from the small communities fund to improve the mobility of people living in small towns.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you very much for your answer.
I would like to throw out an idea. Communities that live in areas that are remote from major centres often face the following problem. As soon as a road is built to these areas, there is a sort of laissez-faire attitude on the part of the federal government with respect to other infrastructure, such as wharves, airports, and so on. Yet these infrastructures are essential to the economic development of these communities. It is not because a road passes through their town that fishermen will start fishing on the road. They will continue to use the wharf. The same thing happens when a community is thousands of miles away from major centres. Sometimes you have to fly in and out. Wouldn't that be a problem?
Wouldn't other modes of transportation, for example, transportation by boat, and even by air, be considered public transportation? I don't know if you have any expertise in this area, but I would still like to hear your views on this.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Urban Transit Association
We focused on travel by bus or train, for example, but not air travel. However, this is a very interesting question.
We are in discussions with Infrastructure Canada to determine the rules that will govern the $250-million fund announced for small communities.
I don't know if air is the best solution, but we are prepared to offer small communities solutions, such as bus transportation or other means. I don't think air travel is going to be one of the options, but maybe the other stakeholders will have something else to say about that.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you.
We realize that air travel is more polluting than other forms of transportation. That being said, when you are 1,000 kilometres or even more than 500 kilometres from a major centre, the idea of having to use bus transportation can be daunting for many, especially if there is an emergency.
I would like to ask Ms. Saxe a question.
Ms. Saxe, we in the Bloc Québécois are often concerned that the federal government will use its powers, for example through the Canada Infrastructure Bank, to circumvent the environmental rules of the provinces and municipalities. The government could decide not to respect these rules under the pretext that it is implementing a federal project. It could impose its project on smaller communities, or even larger communities.
Do you think such a problem could arise in infrastructure development?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey
Ms. Saxe, if you can hold that microphone just above your top lip, that would be great.
Go ahead.
Assistant Professor, Department of Civil and Mineral Engineering, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Thank you for the question. It has a tough one to answer because it depends on the project we're considering and there is often a tension between local needs and goals and wider community or national needs and goals, which need to be balanced. The federal government has a responsibility to speak for all Canadians, and sometimes that can put it in tension with a local desire around infrastructure.
For instance, we see this sometimes in rail projects where there could be a lot of benefit for the rail infrastructure but it has large impacts on the local community.
Yes, that is an important impact and one that needs to be taken into account, but especially for national-scale projects or things that are important at a scale larger than community, we need to be careful to balance the ability of a local community to veto something that is very important.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey
Thank you, Ms. Saxe, and Mr. Barsalou-Duval.
Xavier, I have to say, I'm doing my best to learn French and today is the first time I've heard the French word for “bailiwick”, so thank you for that.
For the NDP, we have Taylor Bachrach for six minutes.