Transport Committee on April 29th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Good afternoon, everyone.

It's my pleasure to call this meeting to order and to welcome each and every one of you to meeting number 29 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of January 25, and proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so that you are all aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few points to follow. First, members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either the floor, English, or French.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in the committee room. Keep in mind the directives from the Board of Internal Economy regarding masking and health protocols.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself.

For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. I remind everyone that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair. When you're not speaking, your mike should be on mute. With regard to a speaking list, as always, the committee clerk and I will do our very best to maintain the order of speaking for all members whether they are participating virtually or in person.

Members, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on October 29, 2020, the committee will now continue its study of targeted infrastructure investments.

I would now like to welcome and introduce our witnesses for today's meeting. First, we have from the Alaska-Alberta Railway Development Corporation, Mr. Jean Paul Gladu, president, Canada; and Mr. Sean McCoshen, founder and chairman. Appearing as an individual is Shoshana Saxe, assistant professor, department of civil and mineral engineering at the University of Toronto. From the Canadian Urban Transit Association we have Marco D'Angelo, president and chief executive office. Finally, from the City of Sept-Îles, is Réjean Porlier, mayor.

With that, we're going to start off with Jean Paul Gladu and Sean McCoshen.

I'm not sure which one of you is going to be speaking, but you have five minutes. The floor is now yours. Welcome.

[Sean McCoshen, Founder and Chairman, Alaska - Alberta Railway Development Corporation]

Thank you.

Good afternoon, everybody. It's such an honour to be invited to speak. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and to the members of this committee for having us this morning.

My name is Sean McCoshen and I am the chair and founder of the Alaska to Alberta Railway, known as A2A Rail. J.P. Gladu, as you've already introduced, is joining me today. We are hear to talk about A2A Rail and to offer our thoughts on the process of developing infrastructure in Canada. Our perspective comes from five and a half years of working to build A2A Rail, a low-carbon, multi-commodity railroad that aspires to be the largest indigenous co-owned project in the world, which will bring immediate and long-term economic opportunity to Canada's north.

From its inception, three objectives have been central to A2A's DNA: one, meaningful indigenous engagement and ownership of the project; two, setting a new gold standard for sustainability and environmental impact; and three, opening a reliable and long-term pathway through the Yukon and Northwest Territories into Alaska.

I founded A2A Rail because I saw the potential and the need for a project of this kind. In fact, when I first learned there was no rail connection into Canada's northwest, I was astounded. Through this work and throughout my career, I have engaged with international investors, many of whom are looking for opportunities in Canada. While many of them tell me that there's a bit of a chill on building large-scale infrastructure in Canada, I believe the one way to prove them wrong is to show the world that we can build large-scale infrastructure in this country.

At A2A Rail we feel strongly that successfully building the kinds of projects this committee is studying means designing a project in the exact way we have designed our railway; placing environmental considerations at the forefront of planning; engaging indigenous communities, not simply in the planning process but as owners and partners in all phases of the project; lowering the cost of living for communities in the Yukon and the Northwest Territories; and, opening Canada's north while deepening Canada-U.S. connectivity. That is the kind of project Canada should be building right now, and we can absolutely do this.

A2A Rail can be a model for how big infrastructure projects in Canada are built going forward. Success through Canada's regulatory process for projects like ours, which is designed with these elements at its core, will go very far to encourage significant new investment.

I'll pass it off to J.P. Gladu at this point.

[Jean Paul Gladu, President, Canada, Alaska - Alberta Railway Development Corporation]

Thank you very much, Sean.

It's a real pleasure to be here. I'm calling in from the traditional territory of the Algonquin people. I'm actually first nation from northern Ontario, the Sand Point First Nation.

It has been an absolute pleasure to be working on this project with Sean. I've known Sean for many years. His passion for this work is palpable.

Our entire team is proud of the way A2A Rail will be built. We have conducted extensive engagement with communities along the route, but beyond that, we’re also in the process of reaching a number of equity agreements with our indigenous communities. In fact, I was on two calls today, one with a community in the Northwest Territories and one in northern Alberta. We have communities all along the route that are incredibly excited about this opportunity and we're engaging with them. As Sean mentioned, we're seeking their input very early on. We flipped the process on its head. We strongly believe that when the indigenous communities are on board, projects see a larger opportunity for success.

We will serve as a vital transportation network in the north. The economic opportunities that come along with it have the potential to unlock $60 billion in cumulative GDP through 2040. The ancillary benefits also include fibre optic connections. I can tell you that one thing Sean has been quoted as saying in the press is that up north he has to pay $8 for a bag of Doritos. I'm being a little bit facetious there, but the opportunity to reduce the cost of northern living for communities along the route will be transformative.

A2A will also set a new standard for sustainable development, as Sean has mentioned, with a 100% offset of all operational emissions and an explicit focus of designing a sustainable railway where safety, environmental protection and indigenous land preservation remain at the forefront. We believe in our approach to A2A Rail, and not only because it’s the right thing to do; it also reflects the priorities and needs of our country right now.

We really do sincerely appreciate the opportunity to present to you today. We look forward to your questions and to further discussion.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, gentlemen.

We will now move on to Ms. Saxe for five minutes.

[Shoshanna Saxe, Assistant Professor, Department of Civil and Mineral Engineering, University of Toronto, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Chair and members of the committee, for having me today. My name is Shoshanna Saxe. I am a professor of civil and mineral engineering at the University of Toronto and Canada's research chair in sustainable infrastructure.

What we build is the foundation of our society. It's the best expression of what we value and what we envision for the future. Transportation infrastructure in particular is the skeletal structure of all of our other infrastructure systems. Transportation influences where we live, where we work, how we travel, who we meet, what opportunities we have, and our consumption. It also drives how much pollution we make.

In Canada, transportation is the second-largest emitter of greenhouse gas emissions, second only to oil and gas, which is also largely about transportation. Every year 13,000 Canadians die from air pollution, which is also largely driven by transportation choices. For scale, in two years this is more people than have died so far from COVID. Our transportation pollution disproportionately impacts the young and those who live near busy roads, meaning it's an important question of both current and future equity.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Mr. Chair, the interpretation isn't working. The problem might be the position of the microphone. If the witness repositioned the microphone, that might allow the interpreters to do their job.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

Mr. Clerk, what's the problem over there?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Michael MacPherson]

I think the interpreters are having a problem with the signal that's coming through. The sound degradation is a little bit too much. They're not able to provide interpretation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Ms. Saxe, could you please place your microphone just above your top lip? I was hearing a popping sound. That could be the problem. Try placing it above your top lip and right against your skin. Just hang it like a moustache. That's what we're always told by the interpreters.

Mike, perhaps you can keep an eye on things and we'll see what happens. We have only a few minutes to get through here.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, hopefully we can get the interpretation for you.

Ms. Saxe, please continue.

[Shoshanna Saxe]

Thank you. Hopefully this will be better.

The consequences of our transportation are not unavoidable things about modern society or economy. They are an echo of our infrastructure choices, particularly 70 years of a single-minded focus on building around the car.

Going forward there are three things we need to do to improve the equity and sustainability of our transportation infrastructure. First, we need to stop making things worse and move away from investing in fossil fuels and automobile-oriented development. We need to invest in no new highways, no road widening, no extensions of our current automobile infrastructure.

Highway construction incentivizes low-density, high-cost land use. It pushes more people to drive farther and it permanently damages our natural lands that are necessary to resilient systems. For a long time we thought of roads as being key drivers of economic benefits, but for a long time now they have been a very low return while maintaining very high costs.

Second, we need to invest in low-tech, low-carbon, low-cost infrastructure now. We have all the tools we need to build sustainable development; we don't need any new inventions. Two of the best tools we have are largely underused in Canada: building infrastructure around the bicycle and around the bus. We can do this rapidly and affordably. It's accessible to all, and once it is done, it tends to be very popular, as has been shown in cities across Canada and around the world.

Finally, we need to be big and ambitious about our long-term projects, but these will take up to 10 years or longer to build, like subways or fast intercity rail. For this we need to establish forums for stable long-term planning and long-term funding. A lot of infrastructure in Canada takes decades to deliver and we've talked a lot in the public discourse about cutting the red tape and making things go faster, but a huge driver of what's making our projects slow is the time it takes to get to the starting line, to prioritize and to get dedicated funding.

In summary, going forward, I hope that we will see more infrastructure in Canada that doesn't prioritize the car, and more focus over what we can do now with technology that works really well, like investing in bicycles and buses, and more long-term planning for infrastructure systems with dedicated funding.

Thank you for your time and for your patience with the tech trouble.

I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Ms. Saxe.

Don't take it personally. This is a normal thing that's been happening over the past year with our new normal when it comes to committee work and, of course, all the tech that we rely on. I give a lot of credit to the interpreters because they do their best with what they have. It's ongoing. It's become the norm, so don't take too much offence.

You did great work.

We're now going to move on to the Canadian Urban Transit Association.

Mr. D'Angelo, you have your headset all ready to go I see, and you have the floor for five minutes.

[Marco D'Angelo, President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Urban Transit Association]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you for inviting me.

Today I'd like to talk about three things: the state of public transit, the benefits of investing in it, and some features of existing programs that prevent funds from reaching communities in need.

I'll begin by talking about public transit.

With more people working remotely or studying at home, ridership has dropped. At this time last year, ridership was down almost 85%, and it is now down about 60%. This means that more than two million people rely on public transit every day. They are most likely to be low-income workers living too far from work to walk or bike to work, but have incomes too low to buy a car. Many are seniors or disabled people carrying out essential daily tasks.

For visiting a doctor or shopping for groceries, public transit is a social enabler. We give people access to employment and education.

Before the pandemic, about half the cost of running transit came from the fare box, and so if we're going to keep service levels so that people who rely on transit can get where they need to go, ongoing financial support from government is going to be needed, as funding through the safe restart agreements is beginning to expire.

We can't let urban mobility become the privilege of only some people. Rather, it must be accessible to all, and that can only happen through public transit. This is the operational aspect.

Of all the infrastructure classes, building public transit creates the most jobs. For every dollar that’s invested, $1.50 of economic activity results. It's also a key way to meet our climate goals. I think about before COVID, when public transit reduced emissions by more than 14 million tonnes a year. That’s like taking three million cars off the road.

The more we develop public transit, the more we connect communities and the more we can fight climate change.

This is why we are so supportive of the permanent transit fund that will take effect in 2026. Predictable, stable funding will let transit systems plan. This will be of most benefit to larger, rail-based projects in our biggest cities.

If we get the details of the fund right, this will be transformational. We'll soon be releasing a paper with some recommendations on how to do that, and we'll make sure that every member of the committee gets a copy.

Before wrapping up, I want to address one other issue that we're studying today: ensuring that infrastructure investments reach communities. We have large regional discrepancies. In the four largest provinces, where provincial governments take advantage of available federal funds, transit gets built. However, in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and the Atlantic provinces, provincial governments for the most part do not. Over the first six years of the investing in Canada infrastructure program, the six smallest provinces have used only 15% of the available federal funds. In some provinces, it's even lower—like 5%. As a result, over the last five years, a lot of Infrastructure Canada’s budget has been unspent. I hope that the permanent transit fund will address this issue. We think there are ways that it can. One way is by adopting proven features like the community-building fund, formerly known as the gas tax fund.

It effectively links the dollars to the program, particularly because municipalities are invited to the table.

It respects Quebec’s jurisdiction by flowing funds through a provincial agency. Another way is by recognizing that one size of a program doesn’t fit all. What works in Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver is not going to necessarily work in Moncton and Brandon. To help smaller projects in smaller communities get built, we think the permanent transit fund should have a baseline stream, an amount that every system across Canada will receive whether or not the province is able to match that. That would help communities in provinces that traditionally don’t invest in transit to get their projects built, and would continue what’s already working well: where larger provinces are keen partners with the federal government and municipalities.

Thank you again for inviting me to appear before the committee today.

I'd be happy to answer any questions you have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. D'Angelo. Great job.

We don't have Mr. Porlier, the mayor of Sept-Îles, online. He's having problems connecting, so I'm going to go right to questions.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have a question.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Actually, I wanted some clarification.

From what I understand, the mayor was unable to connect to the network, but he was able to contact the technicians or the clerk, and he will be able to testify by telephone, without any video image.

Can anyone tell me if this is the case?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Mr. Clerk.

[The Clerk]

No, they have to actually connect through the Zoom meeting. We don't have a phone-in option at this time. IT is on the phone with him right now, and they're working on the problem. Hopefully, they'll get him in soon; otherwise, we'll have to have him back next week.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

We're going to start off our first round of questions—six minutes each, starting with Mr. Kram.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for joining us today.

My questions are for Mr. Gladu and Mr. McCoshen of the Alaska-Alberta Railway Development Corporation.

A couple of years ago, the federal government brought in Bill C-69, which adds a considerable amount of overhead to major pipeline and resource projects, and that law would also apply to the building of the Alaska to Alberta railway. Can the witnesses speak to the effects of Bill C-69 on major projects in Canada and on this railway proposal in particular?

[Sean McCoshen]

J.P., do you want me to take a crack at this one?

[Jean Paul Gladu]

Absolutely, Sean. Go ahead.

[Sean McCoshen]

We're going to be the first major project to go through this new process. The new process emphasizes indigenous consultation. New scares everybody, but the changes were made to address the current realities of climate change that are affecting all of us in this day and age. There are some streamlined effects as opposed to the old bill. There are some additional steps that you must take, but it's something that you have to go through. You know, it's always difficult when you're new to something. You're sort of being the precedent setter, but it is what it is, and it's something that we're looking forward to getting involved with. We currently have a draft in front of the EIA of our process that we're going to be going through. They're working with us. They're tremendously supportive. That's what I have to say on that.

J.P., do you want to add anything?

[Jean Paul Gladu]

For the most part, regarding the challenges in the country with garnishing certainty around any kind of infrastructure project, the projects that are successful are the ones that have strong engagement with indigenous communities.

We've taken that a step further. If you take a look around at any infrastructure projects on Crown lands, I think there is a strong equity portion afforded to communities for their support, and we're seeing a lot of great success. Communities are stepping into that space, and that should help alleviate some of the challenges we will face as an organization going through the IA process.

Thank you.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

A major component of Bill C-69 is indigenous consultation.

Can the witnesses expand on the indigenous consultation they have done or plan to do with respect to the proposed Alaska—Alberta railway?

[Sean McCoshen]

It's massive. JP is our president in Canada and he runs something we like to call the “NET”, which is the northern engagement team. It arguably has the biggest budget. A2A spends several million dollars a month on this in terms of engineering and consultation. Those are the two major components at this point in time.

That will move into environmental once we officially submit...which we're anticipating to be around June or July, depending on how the consultation goes.

It is constant engagement. It's transparent engagement. You have to discuss all sorts of aspects of the project, such as where the line is going to run, where the communities would like to see it run. They tend to have a better knowledge of their land than anybody else, so it's a wonderful resource, and we're very, very grateful for that resource.

JP, you head up that team, so take it away.

[Jean Paul Gladu]

Absolutely. My past experience as the president and CEO for the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business has set me up pretty well with the communities, as far as having pre-existing relationships is concerned. However, you can't rely solely on that. It's being transparent and open with the communities.

There are 22 primary communities that we are engaging with on a regular basis. Unfortunately, due to COVID, there are a couple of communities that have just signalled to us that they are taking their time because they can't get their community together.

There is not one community that has pushed back to us. They have regular concerns that normally come up, around wildlife and water issues, which are all very mitigable with regard to the best environmental and safety standards that we have.

It's constant, open and transparent conversations with the communities, and we're making significant progress, considering the short amount of time that we've been at it.