Transport Committee on May 6th, 2021

[Réjean Porlier]

It's unfortunate, but in some ways it's the same old story; it's the chicken and the egg.

There aren't many of us on the North Shore. The total population of the region is approximately 90,000 or 91,000 inhabitants. It's the second largest Quebec region. The coastline is 1,200 kilometers long. Consequently, it's hard for us to make our voices heard, which is why it's difficult to attract the investment needed to complete the highway. In addition, since the road's unfinished, there are fewer and fewer of us. I'm really convinced of that. Once people manage to leave their isolated and barely accessible villages, they naturally don't really feel like going back.

When it comes to investment, it's really a matter of will, a true uphill battle. During every election campaign for decades now, politicians have promised to complete the road to encourage people to occupy the region. There's even a joke about it. One of Quebec's leaders, Premier René Lévesque, once told a young girl that the road would be finished by the time she grew up. She stopped growing and is still a young girl.

We're eager to see the highway completed. It's unfortunate, but the reality is that it's actually a matter of political power. We don't carry a lot of weight when it comes to making decisions about where investments are made. So I think we're being deprived of enormous potential. We're slowly but surely seeing towns shut down. I think there are fewer and fewer of us across the region as a whole.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I'm going to continue along the same lines. This has an impact on the vitality of those towns because the communities are isolated that way. However, building a land link to all those towns would very likely generate economic benefits. There's talk, for example, of a road link between Quebec and Newfoundland and Labrador.

What benefits would it generate if it were built?

[Réjean Porlier]

The benefits would be enormous, not only for Quebec, but for Newfoundland and Labrador as well. I think the road would provide much quicker access to certain places, depending on it's starting point.

Trade between Quebec and Newfoundland and Labrador would increase and benefit the tourism and other industries. This region is poorly known and has enormous tourism potential. That's increasingly recognized.

This miserable pandemic has had one positive the effect: the crisis has encouraged people to explore their region and to visit it more and more. At some point, however, they get to the end of the road and have to turn around.

Completing the link to Newfoundland and Labrador can't be just a dream. It has to be built soon.

Finishing the road will also provide access to the region's natural resources. This vast territory has so much to offer and is largely unexplored.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

You said the pandemic has encouraged us to explore our region. Last year, I had the opportunity to do that for the first time. I drove to the end of highway 138. Other people may also have a chance to do it one day. I was bitterly disappointed to see that the road stopped. I got to the end and felt I hadn't seen everything. I knew there were still things to see. It's sad for Quebeckers not to have access to their own region.

How is this situation perceived on the North Shore?

From what I understand, this is the main challenge you face right now. Is there a consensus on it? How much popular support is there for the project? What do people think of it?

[Réjean Porlier]

Although it's very hard to reach a consensus on a large region such as ours, there's a consensus on the issue among the regional population and even among the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. We met with mayors from Newfoundland and Labrador and the federal minister of the time in Sept-Îles. We also travelled to Ottawa with representatives of the indigenous communities. That was a first.

We discussed climate change at length and haven't finished those talks. One of the issues that has to be addressed is the fact that the boat that provides the marine link for the towns on the river is finding it increasingly difficult to land during the navigation season. It's not unusual for it to continue on without stopping at the places where it should land to deliver food, for example. That's one of our problems. So people hope the road will be completed.

There's also the health issue. When weather grounds aircraft and prevents boats from sailing and a medical emergency occurs, the result is a real challenge for these people. So we understand why they don't want to live in the region.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I'm going to ask one final question, since I see I don't have much time left.

I know the North Shore was affected by the cuts Air Canada made to its regional routes.

What do you think of the agreement reached between the government and Air Canada?

[Réjean Porlier]

Competition declines every time Air Canada is significantly subsidized. We've experienced it. So that's my biggest fear. Air Canada has a virtual monopoly in Quebec.

We're setting up a cooperative that will provide a minimum fee schedule, and that will belong to us. We know this is possible with larger aircraft such as the Q400s. We'll finally have a say in the development of aviation in Quebec, particularly in the regions.

In our view, Air Canada's record of service to citizens isn't all positive, and that's unfortunate. Its prices are prohibitive. I've seen a one-way ticket from Sept-Îles to Quebec City sold for $1,400. It's less than a two-hour flight. It's ridiculous, but that's the way it is. So these airlines are underused because their prices are prohibitive. Some people drive their cars in the dead of winter to get medical care in Quebec City, where the major centres are, since they can't take a flight because prices are too high.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Mayor, and thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

We're now going to move on to the NDP and Mr. Bachrach.

You have the floor for six minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for your presentations. I'd like to continue with Mayor Porlier.

It's really good to hear your testimony. You represent a very rural region that I imagine is probably similar to some parts of northwest B.C.—very small communities with difficult transportation connections and other aspects of remoteness that impact the quality of life in those places.

Could you describe for me what the current state of affairs in your region is when it comes to rural connectivity and access of rural residents to broadband Internet?

[Réjean Porlier]

A special effort has been made in recent years. Naturally, even programs that come from Ottawa are, in many instances, administered by Quebec City, and they've finally understood that the region has to be served. We're seeing efforts being made to do that. Commitments have even been made and timelines set for communities in all Quebec regions to get adequate bandwidth access. I'm talking about high-speed Internet access.

We're seeing light at the end of the tunnel. This is definitely one of the factors that will ultimately help people stay and work their community.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mayor Porlier.

Following up on that, one of the things I think we see across Canada is that the model for building access to broadband in rural areas involves partnering with the private sector, and then the private sector goes out and tries to put together a business case. Usually the most sparsely populated areas are left out or they're at the end of the line when it comes to service.

Do you think the current model, which relies on the private sector and the existence of a profitable business case, is adequate for rural areas such as the one in your region?

[Réjean Porlier]

I think you've asked an important question. Private companies are in business to make profits, whether in this sector or elsewhere, even in aviation. So they'll go where the money is, which is where populations are concentrated.

The government naturally has to help serve places where it's less profitable to do so, but we can't wind up with prohibitive prices either, as I said earlier, because that's what happens when you let the free market solve the problem. People who have access to the service—that is, if they can even get access—will pay impossible prices. Only a few will get access. There has to be assistance from all levels of government.

Internet access is an essential need in 2021. Everyone should have access to the Internet on the same conditions, and those conditions depend on access. Access makes everything else possible, including development. I'm one of the many who think you need only put development tools in place. Once that's done, we'll do the rest. Give us a minimum level of resources, whether it be in transportation, data or digital access, then watch us develop. We can be very imaginative, but the bare minimum condition is that prices must be affordable for citizens across the region.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mayor Porlier, what you mentioned about affordability is very interesting. What we have seen with the federal government is that pretty much their sole strategy for ensuring the affordability of broadband is competition. In my estimation, there are many parts of rural Canada where there are so few customers that they can only support one service provider. There is always a monopoly in those areas.

Do you feel that the government's current strategy for driving affordability through competition is going to serve rural areas adequately?

[Réjean Porlier]

You're right to bring up competition. There are places where it's not possible as a result of the number of people who live there. That has to be acknowledged. However, we shouldn't have to subsidize excessive costs either.

Somewhat the same model applies in aviation. We subsidize the assistance provided to purchase an airline ticket, but we think ticket prices are too high in many cases. What we do is subsidize private business rather than take all that money to set up a better system.

I agree with you that it's a matter of strategy. You have to establish a strategy that's designed, not to enrich a business that's serving a non-viable market, but to lay the necessary groundwork to provide service access to everyone. There's a price to pay, but I think that will provide us with a better service.

Airline ticket prices are an excellent example. It makes no sense to sell an airline ticket for $1,200. That's an entirely unreasonable price. If I subsidize ticket purchases, all I'm doing is taking the money and giving it back to the airline. Consider the cooperative example I mentioned earlier. According to the proposed fare schedule, a round-trip ticket from Sept-Îles to Quebec City will cost $318, including tax, for a flight on a Q400 because that's a good aircraft. The entire difference between $318 and $1,200 for a round-trip ticket will go directly to the wrong place.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

We're now going to move on to our second round, starting with the Conservatives for five minutes.

Ms. Kusie, you have the floor.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to all our witnesses who are here today.

I'm going to continue down the Liberal line of questioning of my colleague MP Fillmore in regard to ports. I really liked what he was talking about in that conversation about data and freight visibility. That was very encouraging to me. Certainly many of the stakeholders I've talked to have indicated the lack of a supply chain map within our nation clearly identifying all modes and how they interrelate to each other, and secondly, the lack of transparency as to data. This was something that I mentioned in my speech regarding the port of Montreal discussion that we had last week.

Building on that, one of the other items I talked about in my port of Montreal speech was the concern that many ports have in terms of the lack of capacity and the infrastructure that would be required, and a necessity to meet the demands of capacity going into the future.

To Mr. Hamilton, I would ask if he has any concerns in regard to future capacity constraints for his port, please.

[Ian Hamilton]

Specifically for Hamilton and Oshawa, we certainly feel the constraints now and we're struggling to meet demand, which is why we're looking at other opportunities along the Welland Canal in Niagara.

Although we don't do too many containers, container volumes generally grow at about double what GDP grows at. It's sort of a rule of thumb. You can see that there is going to be continuing demand for imported container volumes, which puts increased capacity issues onto particularly the gateway ports, but we see it inside the interior ports as well.

To answer your question, yes, we do see capacity issues. The other area that we see is what we could call “gentrification”. So many cities were built around the ports because they were there. In a lot of ways, sometimes the city has outgrown the port and now there's continual pressure. You see it in Hamilton, you see it in Toronto and you see it certainly in Vancouver, where the residents are wishing the port wasn't there. It's very important that we start to look at ports outside the urban boundaries.

Again, this is why we're looking into some of the more rural areas of the Niagara Peninsula to see opportunities to expand.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Hamilton, my next question is going to be if capacity concerns were felt by many of the ports in Canada, in your opinion. You touched upon ports within your region. Do you ever have conversations about these concerns with the other major ports?

MP Fillmore brought up Halifax, of course, since that's where he is, but I continue to have conversations with other ports, such as Prince Rupert and Vancouver. Do you ever have conversations where these concerns, by these larger ports, are shared as well with these port authorities?

[Ian Hamilton]

I serve on the board of the Association of Canadian Port Authorities, which is a fantastic forum for the CEOs of the port authorities to talk and share concerns. We know that, universally, every port feels they have the same issues—some more acute than other ones, and some looking at more of the long-term problems. Some of the ports you mentioned, particularly around Vancouver and Prince Rupert, which see phenomenal growth, are probably some of the ones that are the most acute, but some great projects in Montreal have been announced to address some of their shortages. I know that Quebec City has a neat project on the go. I know that expansion on the east coast has always been a consideration for Halifax.

Yes, I think every port is faced with the same situation, some worse than others, and we do communicate together on that subject.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Hamilton.

Mr. Chair, with my last half a minute here, I will move to the notice of motion that I put on advisory two days ago. I know there have been conversations amongst all parties, as well as the clerk, so I'm hopeful I can present it, we can vote on it and move along to the rest of the rounds with our witnesses here today.

I'll put it forward again. I move:

That with the exception of the planned appearance of the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Foreign Affairs on the study of the Government’s Response to the Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 Tragedy and one meeting on the Twin Otter type aircraft study, that the committee prioritize all remaining meetings before June 10th in the Spring schedule to the consideration and adoption of reports with regard to the following studies: Aircraft Certification Process; Impact of Covid-19 on the Aviation Sector; and Canada Infrastructure Bank.

I would just like to get the assurance of the committee that we will do our best to complete these reports and get them to the House, given the quantity of work that we have done on them to date, Mr. Chair.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Ms. Kusie.

I want to speak on this as well. I think we can go to the vote.

Mr. Clerk, I had a discussion with my assistant today, and I understand there is a bit of a problem for Tuesday's meeting. If you can let members of the committee know what that challenge is with respect to how it affects our schedule, I'd appreciate that.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Michael MacPherson]

The issue is that one of the witnesses we were looking at bringing in currently resides in the U.K., and we have very late evening sittings on Tuesdays. He would have required technical assistance and support, and he would not have been able to get IT support. I guess it would been around midnight where he is.

On the subject matter of that study, there's a report coming out next week. I believe the department wanted to share that information with the families first and would have felt really awkward being at committee to answer questions on that before they had a chance to discuss it with the families.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

What does that do for our scheduling?