Transport Committee on June 10th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Given what you said earlier, I understood that this has completely taken over your lives. I greatly admire your dedication and your courage under the circumstances. I assume that you must be so invested because you want every opportunity to do everything in your power to find out what happened and that countries do the work that's needed.

Since you have met with so many people, could you first tell me whether you felt that the meetings made a difference?

Second, do you also feel that if you stop pushing, the victims will be forgotten and what happened will be forgotten?

Does that partly explain why you are putting so much energy into this?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

I think Kourosh can answer that question. Thank you.

[Kourosh Doustshenas]

Of course, we believe we have definitely had a positive effect and have been able to influence many minds. In fact, when I was listening to High Commissioner Goodale today, it was wonderful to hear him repeating exactly what we have been saying all these months. He is very familiar with what we want and our demands on this file and what is suspected. Mr. Yaworski was also here answering some questions. Since we started talking to him and the fact-finding committee of our association started working with him, that has all made a huge difference.

When we started, everybody was talking about human error. We had to correct that. Everybody was talking about an accident, and we had to correct that. Everyone was talking about compensation, and we had to correct that. Then we started hearing about systemic error, and we had to correct that. We have done so much work to educate and make corrections to the language and the stance of what different officials have been dealing with and saying over the many months.

We are happy to see the result of our work somewhat today, here, in meeting with you. It was heartwarming for us, on June 17 of last year, when you, all the honourable MPs, unanimously passed a motion, regardless of the government of the day, to continue finding truth and justice for the victims of PS752. You have no idea how effective you are in our hearts and minds when Parliament acts, and acts unanimously, outside partisanship.

We appreciate everything you have done so far and we command, request and ask you to please continue to do whatever you can do best. Make sure you continue your oversight; continue to ask questions, because as I said before, it's not just for our families. This is for every Canadian. Every Canadian should have safety and the ability to travel without being killed or put in prison, or whatever else is happening to Canadians nowadays in other countries.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Doustshenas, and thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval, for the great questions.

Mr. Bachrach, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I too will start by joining my colleagues in expressing my sincere condolences to all the families of the victims of PS752 and by thanking the three gentlemen who have taken the time to be with us today and to answer our questions. I thank you for your courage and your persistence in the pursuit of justice. Hearing your answers to my colleague Mr. Barsalou-Duval's questions about how this has transformed your lives, I think it is a tremendous thing you're doing in helping educate people and pushing for the answers—pushing the government to do the right thing.

If I heard you correctly, it sounds as though your impression is that the Government of Canada has been too passive in its advocacy at ICAO. Is that an accurate impression, and how would you like to see Canada's approach change when it comes to a call for stronger action by ICAO?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

What they have done in ICAO has not been satisfying for the families. Seventeen months have passed. We waited 15 months for Iran's final report. As we mentioned before, nobody said anything in ICAO about the breaches.

Compare that to Ryanair. That's a good example.

Another thing, for example, is that Iran has a representative at ICAO—Mr. Farhad Parvaresh. This person was one of the first people who denied shooting an airplane. This person has been in contact with the IRGC and the Quds Force in the past. There are documents supporting that, but he is in Montreal, here in Canada. ICAO is here in Montreal, in Canada. It's unbelievable to us that the organization we are hosting would act so passively toward flight PS752. For Ryanair, they had an urgent meeting. They didn't have one even urgent meeting about PS752.

The ICAO council has 36 members, and Canada is one of its main members.

I wanted to forget the past and just talk about the future today. I think, now that 17 months have passed, we still have the chance to raise this case at ICAO. Minister Alghabra is going to give a speech on June 18, in 8 days. I'm very anxious to see what he says then.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Esmaeilion. I appreciate your response.

On May 20, there was a decision by the Ontario Superior Court of Justice. I wonder if you could help the committee understand the significance of that decision.

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

I will pass it to Amirali.

[Amirali Alavi]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This was an important milestone in our fight and in our cause. We have been saying for a long time that, based on the evidence that is available to us, the plane was not shot down due to human error. It was, for sure, something more than that. There has to be more than that. It was not as simple as just pushing a button and two missiles being fired.

This is all based on evidence. This is based on how the Tor-M1 anti-air missile system works. This is based on how the aviation and airport management system in Iran works. This is based on many other factors.

We had a chance, through this case, to have our case heard by an impartial judge. We were glad that Justice Belobaba made the same finding, which was that, on the balance of probabilities and based on the evidence that we have available to us, this was a terrorist act. This was an intentional downing and we need to treat it as such. It was not simply an aviation incident. It was a terrorist attack and we need to take actions that match the same level of culpability.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Alavi.

Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you for that response, Mr. Alavi.

This next question is for any of our three witnesses.

In his report, High Commissioner Goodale stated, “The needs of the families of the victims—as those families themselves perceive their needs—must be at the heart of Canada’s response.”

Do you gentlemen feel that has been the case?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

Are you asking about the court case?

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

No. I'm sorry. This is in High Commissioner Goodale's report. He talked about the needs of the families and the importance of putting those needs, as the families perceive those needs, at the heart of Canada's response to this tragedy.

Do you feel Canada has done a good job of putting your needs at the heart of the response?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

We have had ups and downs with things like meeting officials. We have had good days, as Kourosh said. We have had very good meetings with Mr. Goodale and with Minister Champagne in the past. In some meetings, we were really disappointed when we finished, but in some, we thought we got something from the meeting.

As I said, the road map for justice is still not clear for us. We know this is a very long, difficult way. For example, as Mr. Goodale said, there are going to be negotiations and arbitration at ICAO. If it fails, it goes to the International Court of Justice, but we don't know anything about this negotiation.

We know that Iran is not a player in the game of diplomacy. We know that Iran has failed in all the negotiations it's had in the past, like the JCPOA right now. That's why we are very suspicious of Iran's actions in negotiations. We need to know more on what the strategy is and what the road map for the future is.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

Folks, we have four minutes left before 5:30. I don't want to take any time away from anybody, so I'm going to propose this. In our second round, we have a few speakers who are on my list. I suggest that Mr. Van Popta, Mr. Iacono, Mr. Barsalou-Duval and Mr. Bachrach each ask one question, one after the other, and I'll go to the witnesses to close it out.

Mr. Van Popta, if you want to ask a question, then I'll go to Mr. Iacono following you. After that it will be Mr. Barsalou-Duval, and then Mr. Bachrach.

Tako, go ahead.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

If you'll give me a minute, I'm going take some of my time to express my condolences and to stand with my colleagues in doing so for the victims.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here today. It must be very difficult for you, and I cannot imagine what you are going through. Please know that Canada's parliamentarians stand with you.

Mr. Goodale, in his report, said that the investigation is ongoing, but for that, we need facts, evidence and data. Are you at all confident that we're ever going to get that, given that Iran is not co-operating?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Van Popta.

Mr. Iacono, go ahead.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to start with offering to all the families affected by this tragedy my heartfelt sympathies. Losing a loved one is never, ever easy.

I have a question for the families. Do you think that public pressure, either domestic or international, has any effect on the Iranian regime? What other type of pressure would you suggest at this point?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Iacono.

Mr. Bachrach, go ahead.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In my last question, we heard discussion about the Magnitsky sanctions. How do our witnesses feel that such sanctions would help in the pursuit of justice?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, go ahead.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I would like to thank the witnesses for joining us today. I really appreciated their testimony.

Here's my question.

I heard you express your dissatisfaction, because you would have liked the RCMP to launch an investigation.

What difference would that have made in practical terms? What more could the RCMP have done in the circumstances?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval and gentlemen.

The rest of the time is all yours, if you want to address those questions.

If you have any other comments you want to add, feel free.

[Hamed Esmaeilion]

Thank you.

I'll answer the first three questions and leave the fourth one for my friends.

In our opinion, Iran is not going to tell the truth if there's no pressure. We think that they're afraid of it going to the International Court of Justice, so only pressure can help us.

I want to clarify something. We are talking about two different entities, Iran and the Islamic Republic of Iran. Iran is a great country with great people, but the Islamic Republic of Iran has been the hostage taker of a nation for 42 years. We are dealing with the Islamic Republic of Iran, with the history that all of us know. They haven't told the truth about all the crimes that were committed in the last 42 years. Bloody November happened 40 days before PS752, and hundreds of people died in Iran and were killed by the IRGC.

When we say sanctions, we don't want to pressure the Iranian people. That's why we're talking about targeted sanctions, the Magnitsky act and putting the IRGC on the terrorist list. Just freeze their assets in Canada. Canada should not be a safe haven for Islamic Republic criminals.

Deport Farhad Parvaresh from Montreal to Iran. This person doesn't deserve to live in Canada. I think we need, as I said in my opening remarks, to teach them the lesson that it's not easy to kill Canadians.

I'll leave the rest of the answers to Ami.