Transport Committee on Nov. 19th, 2020

[Kelly Gillis]

The last part of that question was not coming through on my microphone.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Since the start of the pandemic, what has your government done to facilitate Internet access in the regions?

[Kelly Gillis]

Thank you for your question.

As the minister mentioned, the universal broadband fund was announced a few weeks ago. This $1.75 billion fund is designed to support high-speed Internet across the country.

At Infrastructure Canada, we've approved 11 projects worth $340 million.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Ms. Gillis, and thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

We'll move on for six minutes to Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Gillis, for being here today.

My first question relates to something I was asking the minister about, and that's the contribution of Infrastructure to our climate ambitions. We have the climate lens, which assesses in a very quantitative way emissions from projects worth over $10 million. I'm wondering about accountability. Where does this all roll up, and why are there no targets related to that? Since we have this quantitative evaluation mechanism, why are there no targets around emissions reductions in the departmental plan?

[Kelly Gillis]

When we're looking at attainment of our climate lens and our climate objectives, there are different tools that we're using. You mentioned the climate lens, which has been one of the tools we recently created as a tool to understand the opportunity and build that into the project analysis process. Through that, it has kind of two volets. It has the GHG portion of it as well as the resilience portion of it. It has been used right now to almost 90% of our approved project values, so that is helpful.

We do have a national target on our infrastructure programming overall, which is 10 megatonnes. At this point in time, based on our attainment of the climate lens, we're just over two megatonnes. We have still two-thirds of our funding to be expended against projects.

There are other tools, though, that we have in place to help us attain our targets. We're working with the National Research Council on new building codes. We're working with the Standards Council on standards. We're also working with the FCM on supporting climate plans and providing capacity within the municipalities to have more awareness and expertise as they think about asset management. I don't think it's just one tool. I think all of them have to actually come together. As well, as we look to the future, what more needs to be done?

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Gillis.

Along those same lines, is the 10-megatonne target a net reduction? I guess what I'm getting at is that some of the investments made in infrastructure actually increase emissions. Are those increases netted out to arrive at the net reduction, or are you simply counting projects that reduce emissions and not the ones that increase emissions?

[Kelly Gillis]

For the 10 megatonnes, it's calculated right now in using the climate lens for those particular projects that are subject to it. As we go forward with our climate plans, we will be looking at, overall, how we continue to learn and do better and what new tools may be in place, including right now assessing the climate lens and how it needs to evolve for the future.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'm still not clear. My apologies. Is it a net...? The climate lens tells you the implications for emissions. Some projects increase emissions and some decrease emissions. With the two megatonnes you've talked about that we've already achieved, is that a net of two megatonnes or is that something else?

[Kelly Gillis]

I will have to get back to you on whether it is a net or is just taking into consideration the ones that we are doing; I believe it is.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Okay. I'd really appreciate that.

The next question is on a slightly different topic. I mentioned to the minister this interest in the equity and infrastructure investment between rural and urban communities, rural and urban parts of Canada. Is that something your department specifically keeps track of? Do you specifically measure to ensure that equity?

[Kelly Gillis]

We do have our rural and northern stream, which is $2 billion across the country. Then we have investments that are being made in that rural stream right now. The types of investments are quite broad. So far, we're about halfway through that particular stream, in the approved projects—about $1 billion dollars worth for just over 400 projects.

That is a really important component, because it's quite a flexible stream where rural communities can determine what their priorities are and what their needs are for their infrastructure investments. That doesn't preclude investments in other streams that actually support rural communities, and that is a really important component of how we look at infrastructure going forward. Overall, recently within our programming, we've about $10 billion that has been invested in communities of under 30,000 in population. Even in regard to our disaster mitigation program that the minister had mentioned, almost half of it has gone to rural communities.

As we look at investments, there are important ones being made in rural Canada. However, as I mentioned before when Mr. Fillmore was asking about the process, the actual projects and prioritization are made by provinces and territories to us and we look at eligibility.

We have another aspect of this, although it's not rural specifically; that is, the community employment benefits, where we look at nine different population groups to see how some of our programs can benefit them.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

It's purely out of curiosity and not meant to be a gotcha question, but does your department track the proportion of investment that goes to rural communities as a percentage of the overall infrastructure spend?

Do you have a sense of whether the overall infrastructure spend is equitable between rural Canada and urban Canada? Is that something that has come up in your department? Is it something that gets tracked? I haven't been able to find any reference to it anywhere.

[Kelly Gillis]

It's not tracked in that way. Obviously, it is specifically tracked in the rural and northern stream, because it's dedicated to rural and northern communities.

In looking at our programming overall, as I mentioned, the other streams also support rural communities. As well, something that is very important, the gas tax, also goes to a number of communities, including rural communities, across the country.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Do I have time for one more question? No.

Thanks very much, Ms. Gillis.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Ms. Gillis and Mr. Bachrach.

We're now going to move on to the second round, which starts off with Mr. Soroka for five minutes.

Mr. Soroka, you have the floor.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Gillis, you know broadband is a big issue for me in my riding. With the universal broadband fund, the Canada Infrastructure Bank seems to be more about loans than actually about grants available.

When municipalities or organizations apply, are they going to be able to receive grants, or are these loans? As well, can they partner with other organizations such as indigenous community groups to get multiple different areas of grants available to them from different programs, or do they have to apply just from one?

[Kelly Gillis]

For broadband overall, with the new broadband program that was announced of $1.75 billion, that is an opportunity to get grants; that is a granting program. As we're looking at the Canada Infrastructure Bank where they have, within their growth plan, put $2 billion, it is not a granting program.

They are looking at opportunities for how to leverage all of the programs to get as much done as possible to meet the target for 2026. Communities should be looking at....and we will be coordinating within the federal government between the departments that fund broadband to make sure that we're maximizing the availability of the funding to do as much as we can.

It does not limit municipalities just to go to one. We actually coordinate among ourselves so we can look at what the best opportunities are for that particular community.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

That's great.

I'm going to switch gears here a bit.

You were talking about electrifying public transit and getting more electric buses and private electric vehicles on the road. My concern is with electricity. I don't believe there's enough generation out there, as well as the distribution, such as powerlines, and charging stations.

Do you have a plan to go along with how you're switching to more of a green tech economy with electricity?

[Kelly Gillis]

Within transmission and electrification, we work very closely with our partner departments. Natural Resources Canada is the lead for the energy sector. Our green stream does fund transmission lines and renewable energy types of projects. We did an important one in B.C. for the Peace region.

So we are looking at it. If provinces and territories do prioritize those types of projects, they are certainly eligible within the integrated bilateral agreements within the green stream. It is an important component to move forward.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

As well, with electric generation, the provinces are starting with funding small modular reactors to generate electricity. Ontario, Saskatchewan and New Brunswick are already developing them. Could you give me your thoughts on nuclear generation on these small projects?

[Kelly Gillis]

For us within Infrastructure Canada, we fund projects that are going to be operational and generating energy in the communities right now. That type of technology is in development and would be looked at through Natural Resources Canada in terms of how that might be coming into operation in the future. Once it is in operation and can actually provide energy, that could be something in the future that may be supported by our type of programming, but it is not in operation right now.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

On the Infrastructure Bank, the government claimed that the infrastructure spending would increase GDP by 0.3% a year, when in fact the PBO estimates that it fell short of that by 67%. Could you please explain where the 0.3% increase in GDP came from?

[Kelly Gillis]

I don't know that reference offhand by the Canada Infrastructure Bank. I can get back to you. I do know that when we are looking at GDP or job numbers, we use the macroeconomic accounts from Statistics Canada. I would have to look at that particular reference regarding the PBO and the Canada Infrastructure Bank.

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Statistics Canada's own infrastructure economic accounts show that there has been almost no increase in infrastructure spending under the current government. The PBO has shown that the provincial capital spending was $5.4 billion lower than it should have been during the years of the Liberal infrastructure bank.

Again, the figures aren't adding up right. You're talking about spending $53 billion in the last three years, and we're hearing that no projects have been completed. Now Statistics Canada is actually saying that infrastructure spending has decreased.