Transport Committee on Feb. 15th, 2024

[Rhoda Boyd, Director, Communications and Passenger Experience, Canadian Air Transport Security Authority]

We have complaints procedures that go through our client satisfaction team. From anybody who has questions before they travel, or if they have a complaint after having gone through security screening, it comes to that team. We address every accessibility complaint as a top priority. They are given attention immediately, and any questions that individuals may have, we address those immediately.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

I see that you have somewhat of a system, so why, in these two cases, did that system not work at its best?

[Nada Semaan]

Those two cases were with airlines, not with CATSA.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Did you guys not have anything to do with that? Do you not communicate with the airline companies? Do you not work together? Are you two different entities?

[Nada Semaan]

We are two different entities. We work together, but we're two totally different entities. We provide security screening at airports.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Do you ever communicate with them? Are there any other fields in the job you do where you communicate with the airlines?

[Nada Semaan]

We're actually very happy to work with all the airlines and airports on an end-to-end solution for all travellers, including persons with disabilities. That's something we would love to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Iacono.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the various witnesses who have joined us today for this important study. I might even call the study frustrating, given what we see all over the media.

People with disabilities end up facing the same issues year after year. I was looking at news stories from 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 and even 2023. I get the impression that the same issues crop up year after year. People with reduced mobility always seem to have trouble getting service. Airlines always seem to treat them in what I would call a cavalier and inappropriate manner.

Mr. Lukács, is there a specific reason for this? Is the situation different in other places? Should we draw inspiration from the legislative framework in other countries and adapt our own framework to address the current issues?

[Dr. Gábor Lukács]

When we look at the United States, it's different because there are statistics, and the public reporting of statistics. You can go on the DOT website, and find daily and monthly statistics on lost or damaged mobility aids. What the airline has done doesn't remain a secret.

We should implement a similar system in Canada. We can perhaps enhance the statistical reporting of disability-related complaints that the airlines themselves receive.

As for other matters, the one-person-one-fare rule has been a pioneering effort in Canada. I don't think we should be looking at other countries. On the contrary, we should set an example and be international leaders in accessibility. We should be expanding the one-person-one-fare rule to all flights, not only within Canada but also to and from Canada.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you for your response, which brings something else to mind.

Not long ago, I came across some encouraging news for people who want to board aircraft in wheelchairs. A certification process is under way for certain wheelchairs that could fit on aircraft.

That said, I was surprised to see that this certification process is carried out in the United States, but that Canada would implement the process only if the United States decided it were the right step. I wonder whether it's normal for Canada to constantly lag behind the United States or neighbouring states in terms of legislation.

[Dr. Gábor Lukács]

No, we should not be trend-followers; we should be trendsetters. Canada should be a world leader in accessibility in transportation. We should be setting the trend. We should be setting an example and letting other countries follow us. Just because the U.S. may be lagging behind on some of these issues is not a valid excuse for us to not do everything to meet our Canadian values of accessibility.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you.

In your opening remarks, you referred to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. I found this interesting, particularly when it comes to how these people should be treated and how their rights should be respected.

I was wondering why you didn't talk about the International Civil Aviation Organization, or ICAO, in your opening remarks. Do any components of the ICAO framework go further than the current Canadian framework?

[Dr. Gábor Lukács]

I'm afraid I didn't hear the legislation you were referring to. It was not in the translation.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

It's hard for me to know which comments haven't been interpreted. I'll repeat my question.

Up until now, when you spoke about standards or the needs of people with disabilities, you referred to the rights established by the United Nations. However, the Montreal‑based ICAO has also set standards that it recommends that Canada and other signatory countries apply. When it comes to people with disabilities or reduced mobility, should any ICAO standards be further explored or implemented? Does Canada currently implement them properly?

[Dr. Gábor Lukács]

Thank you. Now I understand the question.

The airline organizations are setting norms and standards for the airlines. Parliament's role is to set the standards in law, so the airlines have to follow what Parliament is setting. Airlines should not be dictating to Canada what the laws on disabilities and accessibility should be.

Certainly, looking at other sources as inspiration and as authority is a great initiative. However, ultimately, Parliament is sovereign, and Parliament has the authority. It should be telling the airlines what the human rights standards are that they have to meet if they want to do business in Canada, from Canada and to Canada.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you.

The one‑person‑one‑fare policy states that carriers can't charge more than one fare to people with disabilities. You said that, to your knowledge, this applies only to domestic flights in Canada. No other country does this.

In response, Canada seemed to say that it would need to contact its international counterparts to establish these types of standards, since this isn't a normal practice abroad. Is this type of policy applied in other places? Should we be the first to apply it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Unfortunately, we're going to have to wait until the next round for a response to that, Dr. Lukács. If you can hold a response, that would be greatly appreciated by Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

Next we'll go to Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours. You have six minutes, sir.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Dr. Lukács and the team at CATSA, for being with us today.

I think we're here as a committee largely because of the atrocious, dehumanizing and harmful treatment of people with disabilities by Canada's airlines. I sincerely hope that this committee can produce a report with strong recommendations that can lead to real changes that result in the better treatment of people who fly on Canadian airlines.

I do note that Mr. Lepofsky from the Accessibility for Ontarians With Disabilities Act Alliance was supposed to be with us as a witness. Unfortunately, he had technical issues with his sound. I hope that the committee can have him back; I think he'll bring a very important perspective to this study.

I'll start my questions with Dr. Lukács.

Dr. Lukács, you've been an outspoken advocate for air passenger rights writ large. I wonder if you could start by drawing some parallels between the current government's approach to air passenger rights and the current government's approach to regulations around the treatment of people with disabilities who travel.

[Dr. Gábor Lukács]

The Parliament I am seeing is concerned about inadequate enforcement and inadequate legislation. There is, however, a difference. When it comes to the rights of passengers with disabilities, at least the government is showing some good intentions, whereas I could not say the same thing about passenger rights. In the case of disabilities, I would say it is more a question of poor implementation, and not direct, deliberate sabotage of the implementation of policy.

Enforcement has been a concern. It is also something that has been identified in the Auditor General's report, although I don't believe that a lack of resources explains the low number of fines that were issued, for example, to Air Transat, while the cases with significant media exposure get very significant fines.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

What do you think does explain it?

[Dr. Gábor Lukács]

The explanation is that there is some intent of virtue signalling; there's some level of differential treatment based on political desires, as opposed to simply looking at violations and having a standard and consistent enforcement of a particular undesirable behaviour.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Dr. Lukács, you mentioned the one-person-one-fare regulations and the fact that the airlines do not feel these extend to international flights. There was recently a ruling on this topic by the Supreme Court of British Columbia, where the court found the opposite. Can you comment on that ruling and what implications it might have?

[Dr. Gábor Lukács]

We were talking about the preliminary ruling on WestJet's challenge to a lawsuit about the one-person-one-fare rule. Passengers were suing because they had to pay extra on international flights in particular, because WestJet does not follow the one-person-one-fare rule for international flights.

That's a preliminary ruling that paints a very damning picture of the Canadian Transportation Agency's efforts to avoid dealing with the one-person-one-fare rule on international flights. They were essentially playing hot potato and referring to non-existent international obligations that don't in any way tie Canada's hands as an excuse for their inaction.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

You mentioned WestJet. We're going to have the CEO of WestJet appear in our second hour. How would you describe WestJet's record when it comes to the treatment of people with disabilities?