Transport Committee on Feb. 15th, 2024

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

The interpretation is working again.

Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, you can start over if you want.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I referred to three cases that received media coverage. I'll start again.

The first case, reported by Radio‑Canada on November 9, 2023, concerns a WestJet flight. In the article, Lisa Gilliard says that staff almost dropped her spouse, Phil Gilliard, as they tried to transfer him to his seat. Another Radio‑Canada article, dated August 2, 2022, states that Air Transat staff dropped a passenger with reduced mobility in the aisle while transferring him to his seat, and that he waited over three minutes to be picked up and placed in his seat. A third article, published in La Presse on February 5, 2024, describes a case involving Air Canada. A man was dropped and injured when Air Canada staff failed to use an elevator as requested.

Mr. Lukács, clearly these situations are almost identical and they keep happening. It seems that the staff aren't trained to look after these people, or that the airplanes don't have proper equipment. What are your thoughts on this? Why do these incidents happen? Isn't it a duty or an obligation to properly train staff to look after people with reduced mobility?

[Dr. Gábor Lukács]

There is clearly a duty for the airline to properly train staff and to ensure that its staff have the necessary tools to provide accessibility in transportation.

In my view, that duty also extends to any subcontractor the airline hires, as agents or in any other capacity, to do work for the boarding and disembarking of passengers on that flight.

Part of the problem is perhaps a cultural issue. There may be a culture of cutting corners, of “let's not do things by the book”. What needs to be instilled in them is that these things do matter, and that is why significant fines would be important to get the point across that this is no joke. This is a serious matter.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Next, we have Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes, please.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to try to fit in two questions, one for Ms. Semaan and one for Dr. Lukács.

Ms. Semaan, can I understand from your previous response that CATSA is in the process of moving from a system whereby passengers are required to identify their disabilities and required accommodations to one in which CATSA will proactively ask passengers if there is special accommodation that they need?

I can see you shaking your head, so I look forward to your clarification.

[Nada Semaan]

Actually, we will not ask because, from a privacy perspective, we would never come up and ask, “Do you have any disability or require assistance?”

Our screening contractors are trained to observe proactively if somebody may need assistance. They also are trained to look for the sunflower lanyard for people with hidden disabilities who want the extra help.

Coming up, what we will be doing—which is new—is having non-screening officers, people who are fluently bilingual whose sole job is to help people through the system, to help people through the security screening. If they see somebody struggling, they'll literally walk them through to the special needs line or to any line, and make sure that they're there with them throughout the process to provide them with any support they need. Those are additional resources that we never had in any previous contract, but they are there just for the support of the travelling public, specifically for persons who require additional assistance.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you for the response.

I'll just look to the chair to see whether I have any seconds left to ask Dr. Lukács a question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have 58 seconds, Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I have 58. I can do it; I can do it.

Dr. Lukács, I'm going to turn to the accessibility of the onboarding experience—passengers getting on the airplane and taking their seats. Does the fact that flight attendants—who, really, are responsible for assisting with that process—aren't actually paid until the airplane takes off impact their ability to assist and ensure that people with disabilities are accommodated?

[Dr. Gábor Lukács]

Personally, I'm finding it very troubling that the crew members don't get paid for the work that they do, and that work doesn't start when the flight takes off. I, obviously, support fair pay to the crew members.

In terms of these disability issues, I'm not sure if it directly relates to it because the physical force that is required to assist the person into their seat may not be in the possession of those flight attendants who are just trained to push a trolley and not to have to lift a person.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Dr. Lukács.

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

We'll have a bit of a lightning round here for the next two on the docket.

Mr. Strahl, I'll give you three and a half minutes, please.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Okay. I'll go straight to Ms. Semaan.

You mentioned that you wouldn't ask disability or accessibility questions. However, whenever you check in for a flight with a Canadian airline, it asks if you have an accessibility request. CATSA scans both when I enter the lineup and when I put my bags on the belt. Would that information appear to the CATSA screener? If not, do you think that is something that's possible, or is there something preventing that information from being shared?

[Nada Semaan]

We don't get it now. That's actually a good point. From a privacy perspective, I'm not sure if we could, but there's nothing stopping us from asking the questions and seeing if that's possible.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

I mean, you get my name, and you get the flight I'm taking and all that.

[Nada Semaan]

No.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

That, perhaps, is something that we can ask the airlines as well: if they're willing to share that data throughout the airline experience.

Dr. Lukács, you mentioned that a $100,000 fine should be imposed if a wheelchair or a mobility aid is left behind. What are you basing that number on, other than that it's round and has several figures in it? Are there other examples in a non-travel experience where other entities—hotels or that sort of thing—that fail to provide this have been issued those types of penalties?

I guess that's my question. We can talk about large fines, which perhaps would have an impact on behaviour, but I'm just wondering if there are examples of where you're drawing that number from. Is there something comparable in other countries or in other sectors of the Canadian economy where that number might have come from?

[Dr. Gábor Lukács]

There are two sources for these numbers, maybe even three.

The first one is looking at the maximum fines available for disability-related violations under the current legislation, which is pegged at $250,000. It is not going the full $250,000 per offence, but it is still significant.

The other source is looking at the airline's revenue. If the fine is too small, it's just a cost of doing business.

The third aspect is one on which you can do a far more precise analysis. It's what I colloquially call the Kaplow formula. It is based on a textbook on analysis and law where you use probabilistic methods to gauge what kind of fine is necessary to dissuade a particular conduct, bearing in mind the potential for financial gain from that conduct and financial gain from preventing that conduct, how much it will cost the airline to take steps to avoid that particular conduct, and how often that issue gets detected. There is a science to it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Lukács.

Mr. Badawey, the floor is yours for the final three and a half minutes of this first hour. Go ahead, please.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I do want to preface my comments by saying that we are attempting today to be proactive and to hopefully not get to the space where we have to react when it comes to fines. Yes, we expect regulations, procedures and standards to be put in place, but at the end of the day, we have to focus on these things not happening in the first place. Enforcement has to be a part of that. The separate discussion is reactive when it comes to fines, etc.

I will say that it disturbs me that we don't have an end-to-end process. This is a service. Bottom line, it's a service. We have to recognize that mobility aids are not luggage. They are in fact extensions of one's body and one's independence—period. That said, it's incumbent upon all of us, us as government, to ensure that we continue to analyze and improve business practices across the board. That's our job. But we can only do that with our partners, and that's you. End-to-end service by the airports, CATSA and the airlines is incumbent. With that, the goal is to extend or provide a positive customer experience end to end.

I'll ask you the same question that I'll be asking those folks back there, who don't look very happy: Why aren't you—CATSA and the airports and the airlines—working together to come with recommendations on standards and procedures, and therefore, on our part, regulations, to provide that end-to-end experience?

[Nada Semaan]

Quite honestly, I couldn't agree more that we need to do that. It's funny; we had a meeting with WestJet when I first started on board. That is something that we feel we need to do. We need to look at the entire experience.

I cannot improve the service just by looking at what CATSA can do. We need to look at it holistically for all, for passengers and non-passengers. We have been working quite closely airport by airport. Every airport is different. Depending on what they have and what they don't have, we can improve the service. We don't have a standard system across every single airport. We are working airport by airport.

We'd be more than happy to work together to create one holistic view of the passenger experience that we could improve. That was actually what I mentioned to the chief accessibility officer, that we would love to be part of that.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

I think that's the goal we all want to achieve with this study. We have analysts here who will be taking a lot of notes. We'll therefore have a lot of recommendations from those notes. Of course, we will expect a response back from the minister. With that, the expectation is that we are all in this together.

Let me suggest this. I believe we have WestJet back there in the corner. Unfortunately, they didn't get here at the beginning, which would have been nice, because they could have heard this. With that said, possibly when they come up for the second part of the meeting, you can stick around to hear what will be said and discussed with them. I think that has to continue. It's too bad Air Canada wasn't here from day one. We could therefore, as we progress through this study, actually understand, hear and learn about what the others are challenged with.

With that said, all providers can come out with a solution together. It's about a person's experience the second they walk into that airport, get into the CATSA line, get onto the airplane, get off the airplane and go through the airport again until they get into the vehicle that will take them to their end destination. It's an experience, and we have to make that a positive experience. I suggest that we all work on this together throughout this entire study. Let's all pay attention to what the others are doing, how we'll react and the strategies we'll put in place so that the procedures, regulations and standards are therefore harmonized between all the providers.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Badawey.

On behalf of all members, I want to thank our witnesses for joining us here in person and, of course, by video conference. I wish you a wonderful rest of your day.

We'll now suspend the meeting until such time as we can welcome the witnesses for our second hour.

This meeting stands suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I call this meeting back to order.

Colleagues, appearing for the second hour today we have, from WestJet Airlines, Mr. Alexis von Hoensbroech, chief executive officer. Welcome to you.

We have Mr. Andrew Gibbons, vice-president of external affairs. Welcome back, Mr. Gibbons.

We also have Mr. Todd Peterson, director of regulatory affairs.

I thank all three of you for appearing before our committee today.

I'll turn it over to you to get us started with your opening remarks. You have five minutes, please.

[Alexis von Hoensbroech, Chief Executive Officer, WestJet Airlines Ltd.]

Thank you very much, Chair and honourable committee members. Good morning.

My name is Alexis von Hoensbroech. Congratulations on pronouncing it the right way. It rarely happens.

I am the CEO of the WestJet Group, and today, I am joined by two of my colleagues. You already introduced them: Andy Gibbons, VP for external affairs, and Todd Peterson, director of regulatory affairs. He is also heading our task force for accessibility issues.

Thank you for having us here today on a topic that is deeply important to me, to WestJet’s entire team and to all our guests. I appreciate the opportunity to be here in person today to contribute to your study on accessible transportation.

Of the eight million Canadians who identify as having a disability, 72% reported encountering some accessibility barriers over the past year. We want to be part of improving this statistic.

I would like to speak directly to our guests and to all Canadians tuning in today. Thank you for considering or choosing WestJet for your trip. Let me assure you that we're committed to making transportation more accessible for our guests with disabilities.

Every WestJetter understands the importance of meeting our guests’ accessibility needs.

In 2023, over 260,000 WestJet reservations included a request for special services related to a disability. Wheelchair-related services accounted for most of those at 230,000. This means that on average, over 700 guests every day need accessibility support as they travel with us.

Over 99.9% of those guests had a good experience. While perfection is hard to achieve, it is what we must always strive for in meeting the needs of our guests with disabilities. We also recognize that when things can and do go wrong, we must be at the top of our game to make things right as quickly and seamlessly as possible.

To our guests who didn't have a good travel experience with WestJet, I want to say that we're truly sorry and that we're committed to doing better.

Air travel involves a complex system of stakeholders that must work together to serve travellers. Airlines, airports, third party handlers, ground equipment manufacturers and aircraft manufacturers, to name a few, must all take on the challenge together.

At WestJet, we are doing our part through investments to make air travel more accessible. We provide initial and ongoing accessibility training to all guest-facing staff. We employ medical experts to ensure we understand and assess the travel needs of guests with disabilities. We are an active participant in industry forums where best practices are shared and advanced. We ensure our approaches are informed through engagement with international and external parties with expertise or lived experience.

All that said, we know there is more to do to remove barriers to travel for people with disabilities. We are actively seeking opportunities to provide accessible services for both our guests and our employees, and we are committed to learning and growing in this space.

WestJet has a robust accessibility plan, and I’ve appointed Todd to lead the internal task force that constantly reviews and implements improvements. WestJet is committed to continuous improvement and is here to be part of the solution. We can assure parliamentarians, and our valued guests, that accessibility is and will remain a top priority for WestJet.

I am pleased to take your questions. Thank you.