Transport Committee on Feb. 27th, 2024

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Pégeot, would the CTA be willing to table with the committee information about all of the fines that have been issued with respect to accessibility challenges or complaints—obviously with the privacy data redacted? I think the committee would really benefit from seeing how many fines have been levied, for what amount and in what kinds of different scenarios.

[France Pégeot]

Oh, absolutely. It's already on our website.

Just last year, we gave $146,000 in fines, and so far in this year alone—and we're just talking about accessibility here—we have given $536,000.

That being said—

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

They sound like big numbers to Canadians, I think, but these are very large corporations for whom paying that kind of fine seems to be the cost of doing business. The question is always about whether the fines are achieving any sort of objective in terms of improving behaviour, but I'll leave that for now because I only have two and a half minutes.

I'd like to follow up on this one-person, one-fare issue. It's been pointed out by my colleague that these international treaties expressly permit the prevention of discriminatory pricing practices. It would seem that one person, one fare falls clearly into that category. It's a discriminatory pricing policy to require someone with a disability to purchase two fares for one trip. The APPR, Air Passenger Protection Regulations, apply to international flights. It's Canadian law, and the CTA applies it to international flights both arriving in Canada and departing from Canada. Why not the one-passenger, one-fare rule?

[France Pégeot]

Most countries have air passenger protection regulations, but the one-person, one-fare rule is actually only in Canada. We're the only country with it. For example, the United States does not have these types of measures; it doesn't even have measures like we have. We provide pain and suffering compensation and reckless behaviour compensation to individuals. That's something we have here in Canada that is not there—

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I guess what I'm trying to drill down on is whether the CTA is claiming that there's a legal reason they can't apply the one-passenger, one-fare policy to international flights. Are you claiming that we're simply not doing it because other countries don't do it, and we don't want to get out too far ahead of other countries?

[France Pégeot]

No. What I'm saying is essentially that because other countries don't have one person, one fare, it would impose some pricing issues that would go against international agreements, and this has been—

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

But the bilateral treaties.... Mr. Barsalou-Duval read out the section of the bilateral treaty with the United States, which expressly says that it's permitted, that intervention in pricing to prevent “unreasonably discriminatory prices or practices” is fair game. Why doesn't the CTA take that up?

[France Pégeot]

This is certainly something we have to look into, but the advice we have received from Transport Canada and Global Affairs, which are really the ones managing those international agreements—

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

It sounds like we should bring them to committee.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

Next, we have Mr. Strahl.

You have three minutes, please.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Cadieux, I only have three minutes, so I will dive right in.

It was mentioned in passing by one of the airlines—WestJet—at the last meeting that in the European model for persons with disabilities, the airport authorities are responsible for ensuring accessibility. Requirements are met from the time the person parks their car or is dropped off to the time they're actually seated in the aircraft. That's what I've read.

It seems to me that is something that's worth examining in Canada.

Have you done any work like that? Could you perhaps give us your professional opinion? Would you have any personal advice as well, as we look at that?

It seems to me that there are fewer hand-offs if an airport—which is responsible for the parking lot all the way to the gate, to the bridge and to all of it—is actually responsible. Then the airline concentrates on helping individuals when they're actually on the aircraft.

What are your thoughts on that? Have you studied that model at all?

[Stephanie Cadieux]

I haven't studied it. I have experienced it. Certainly from my conversations with other advocates and individuals with disabilities from other countries who travel, I'm not sure that any of the systems are great at this moment. I would say that if you talk to individuals from different countries, what they are most comfortable with is the one that they're most used to.

That said, I think everything is on the table in terms of how do we do this better. Accessibility Standards Canada is looking at developing a standard on accessible journeys and what that looks like.

Ultimately, whatever solution the sector comes up with, as long as it provides consistent, safe, dignified service—service that looks essentially the same for me as it does for you—would be the right solution.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Have you or the people you've talked to in your circle experienced that those hand-offs, if I can call them that, are a place where there are breakdowns or have you found that those are pretty well navigated?

[Stephanie Cadieux]

It definitely is a place where there are breakdowns. It's mostly reliant on, I would say, whether or not there has been adequate planning and staffing.

This is an area where I think there's room for government and the sector to sort of work together.

There's also a piece that is important, which is for people with disabilities to know about how they participate in this process in terms of letting an organization know they're coming. If that is in place, then organizations can ensure the staff are there. If they don't know, that obviously creates challenges for them.

I think there's room for the airlines and government—the regulators—to come together to help inform and educate on both sides of the equation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Strahl, and thank you, Ms. Cadieux.

Next and finally for this round, we have Mr. Badawey.

The floor is yours for three minutes, please.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First off, I want to say thank you to all of you for being here today. There's no doubt that it's going to add to the testimony, which we'll then add to the final report and, of course, the response from the minister.

I had the opportunity to go to the GTA and tour the airport last Thursday and to discuss with them their accessibility action plan 2023-26: their processes, the internal action plans, the communications and their long-term goals, as well as the overall experience and environment they're trying to provide for the customer and, quite frankly, for their employees.

I'm going to dive right into it and ask Ms. Hogan about this.

First off, many of the recommendations were directed directly to the sectors. However, they were not granularly directly directed to the airlines. You do mention Via Rail a few times, but ultimately, for the airlines, you basically tend to recommend based on sector.

My question for you, Ms. Hogan, is, from your discussions, what recommendations would you actually make—being a bit more granular—to the airlines, etc., within those sectors, any regulatory actions, whether it be government or whether it be the CTA or others?

I would only assume, for example, that you had discussions with the CTA with regard to applicable accessibility-related legislation—and I'll underline this statement—to encourage being proactive versus reactive, which the CTA often is, with a whole-of-sector approach, including the airlines. Hopefully, once we have that discussion and those recommendations, those with a disability won't need the CTA because we're being more proactive than reactive. That's question number one.

Question number two is, how important is it for the airlines to be required to release their disability-related complaint data ASAP so that we recognize the scope of their problem? Therefore, as well, the CTA can be involved, if need be, to react to those complaints. To add to that question, will Bill C-52 be an enabler to this?

My last question sort of goes outside the scope of today, but it's something that I often have to deal with in my riding. Do you think there is a need to expand the study to include the effects of airline and rail operations—underlining “operations”—on disabled people?

[Karen Hogan]

I hope we've taken good notes.

I'll start off with the first question. I cannot make recommendations to airlines. They are not a part of the federal government. My mandate stops and starts with auditing the federal government and Crown corporations, which is why Via Rail—

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Just to that, Ms. Hogan, but you can make recommendations to those who can make recommendations to the airlines.

[Karen Hogan]

I can absolutely make recommendations to the Canadian Transportation Agency—

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Exactly.

[Karen Hogan]

—as we have, but I cannot recommend policy. That's for policy-makers. I look at how policy is implemented and put in place by federal organizations.

When it came to the Canadian Transportation Agency, we made a few around their inspections and better access to data. When it came to inspections, we found that many of them were just looking at the design of an inspection.

On paper, it might look like the service was really well laid out and designed, but it's the actual implementation and lived experience of a person with a disability that needs to be looked at, so we recommended that they look more at the sort of operating implementation. These are on-demand services, right, not something that someone might provide every single day, so actually seeing it in action is a better way to improve: “Are the regulations the right thing and is our follow-up the right thing?”

When it comes to complaint data, linked to your second question and then linked to airlines, we definitely saw it as a gap that in the United States, for example, Air Canada would be required to report a certain complaint or damage to a wheelchair, whereas in Canada it's only if the individual chooses to report a complaint to the Canadian transportation Agency that they would be made aware of it. Not having access to complete data I think limits the opportunity to decide if regulations are enough, or if inspections are enough—so obviously better data.... I echo many of the comments that Ms. Cadieux made, and I would tell you that it's even about intersectionality, and the more data and the better data that folks can have to play with is always good.

Then, when it comes to the effects that all of this has, well, I think understanding the lived experiences, getting consultation with individuals with disabilities, will only improve regulations and inspections and so on. In part of the accessibility regulations, one of the key lines is, “Nothing without us”. That needs to happen at every stage, even when you're designing a new regulation—not once it's in place—to see the impacts of it. I think it's a full-spectrum analysis that's needed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Badawey.

Thank you, Ms. Hogan.

I want to thank all of our witnesses for giving their time so generously today and contributing to this very important study for all Canadians.

I'm going to suspend the meeting for a few minutes to allow the clerk and her team to welcome the next round of witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I call this meeting back to order.

We will now continue with our testimony and turn it over to our witnesses who are, from the Canadian Airports Council, Monette Pasher, president.

Welcome.

From the Greater Toronto Airports Authority, we have Kurush Minocher, executive director, customer experience and airline relations, joining us by video conference.

Welcome to you, sir.

From the Vancouver Airport Authority, we have Tamara Vrooman, president and chief executive officer, once again joining us by video conference.

We'll begin with our opening remarks. For that, I will turn it over to you, Ms. Pasher.

You have five minutes, please.

[Monette Pasher, President, Canadian Airports Council]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for the invitation to appear today to discuss the current study on accessible transportation for persons with disabilities regulations.

Before I begin, I would like to acknowledge that we are on the traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people, and I pay respect to elders past and present.

I am pleased to be appearing here today and to have my colleagues Tamara and Kurush here with me virtually.

Canadian Airports Council represents over 100 airports, including all the national airports system airports and most passenger service airports in every province and territory that handle all of the nation's air cargo, international passenger traffic and 90% of our domestic passenger traffic as well.

Accessibility in the travel journey is more than regulatory compliance. It is about ensuring that all passengers, regardless of a need, have a seamless, respectful and dignified experience. This really is our north star, and we are shaping our objectives and activities as an association around this goal. Certainly there are imperfections, and things can go wrong, and they shouldn't, but we want to learn, improve and aim higher for all passengers in Canada's airports.

With this objective, over the last several years, the CAC and Canada's airports have focused our attention on taking action. Over the last year, the CAC has collaborated with learning management system experts, Harper Learning, to design a new national training program on accessibility in Canadian airports. The goal is to offer a nationally consistent program to train all airport authority employees not just on the regulatory requirements but on how they can best assist a person with a disability at every step of their journey through the airport.

Further, we have also begun work to develop a five-year road map on accessibility for our airports in order to move forward on the broader goal of barrier-free travel in Canada by 2040.

As it stands, Canadian airports have many innovative programs in place that also follow the regulatory requirements established by Transport Canada and the CTA in order to make the passenger journey a better one for people with disabilities, but most airports really do go above and beyond the CTA requirements. Airports care deeply about making tangible improvements to continually raise the bar and better serve passengers.

In addition, the CAC leads an accessibility working group with subject matter experts on the passenger journey and operations. This working group meets monthly to discuss current issues and challenges faced in our airports and helps provide peer guidance and best practices in planning and implementation so we can learn from each other on accessibility efforts in airports from coast to coast.

With over 100 airports, CAC members range from YVR and YYZ, whose representatives are here with me today, but also Hamilton, Nanaimo and many small airports across the country.

When it comes to the larger airports, they have the technology and infrastructure to be some of the most accessible airports in the world, and that is the goal of many. Some of them are now working on world accessibility accreditation in that program, and a number of them have it as well, so we are taking those global steps.

For Pearson, it's about crafting an experience that prioritizes ease and inclusivity. For Montreal, it's about fostering meaningful progress with partnerships with both industry professionals and individuals with disabilities. For Winnipeg, it's about continuing to develop programs and initiatives such as passenger rehearsal programs, pet relief stations and increasing signage containing Braille.

Regional and smaller airports continue to strive to upgrade technology, infrastructure, staffing and communications for travellers with disabilities. Many are working with the Rick Hansen Foundation and going through their audit program. This program is national in scope and rates meaningful access based on users' experience of people with varying disabilities affecting their mobility, vision and hearing.

The Canadian Airports Council and our member airports are ready to work with the members of this committee to strengthen the journey for all passengers.

We look forward to your questions and the discussion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Ms. Pasher.

Next, we have Mr. Minocher.

The floor is yours. You have five minutes, sir.