Transport Committee on Sept. 6th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 124 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Pursuant to Standing Order 106(4), the committee is meeting to discuss a request to undertake a study of the most recent travel chaos and the continued problems across Canada's passenger transportation system.

Colleagues, before we begin, I'd like to make a couple of comments regarding audio feedback. I'd like to remind all members and other meeting participants in the room of the following important preventive measures.

To prevent disruptive and potentially harmful audio feedback incidents that can cause injuries, all in-person participants are reminded to keep their earpieces away from microphones at all times. As indicated in the communiqué from the Speaker to all members on Monday, April 29, the following measures have been taken to help prevent audio feedback incidents.

All earpieces have been replaced by a model that greatly reduces the probability of audio feedback. The new earpieces are black in colour, whereas the former earpieces were grey. Please only use an approved black earpiece. By default, all unused earpieces will be unplugged at the start of the meeting. When you're not using your earpiece, please place it face down in the middle of the sticker for this purpose that you will find on the table as indicated. Please consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents.

The room layout has also been adjusted to increase the distance between microphones and reduce the chance of feedback from earpieces.

These measures are in place to ensure that we can conduct our business without interruption and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

We'll begin today. I'll turn the floor over to Mr. Lawrence.

Mr. Lawrence, the floor is yours.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm disappointed that we have to be here today, but I think it is very important that we are. Of course, the subject of our emergency sitting of the transport committee under Standing Order 106(4) is with respect to the unfortunate incidents that happened over the Labour Day weekend.

For those who aren't aware and didn't see media reports—of course, there were many—a train was stopped in Quebec for over 10 hours. Individuals were in extremely difficult situations. This 10-hour delay came at a time when people were expecting to arrive, to see their parents, to see their children, to get to work, to get to their medical appointments. They couldn't do this. During that 10-hour period, unfortunately, they were without power for over 90 minutes, including being without toilets or any washroom facilities for over an hour and a half. There was very limited food, limited water and some limited communication.

There were actually two mechanical breakdowns on the Via Rail train. One was relatively minor; the second was a full engine breakdown. I think this certainly merits questions, and it merits investigation. If it were in a vacuum, perhaps I would not have as much frustration as I do with this Liberal government. However, we have to look through the recent years.

In fact, you only have to look back to my riding, actually, the beautiful town of Cobourg, where a train was stuck for over 18 hours during the holiday season of 2022. That story in itself was, to me, a significant ordeal, particularly for those involved. It was overshadowed by the chaos that occurred at Canadian airports. Many media reports covered what happened at Pearson Airport in 2022. I suspect that many of the people watching there, if they weren't involved, know someone who was. These were people who were counting on getting home to see grandchildren, to see children, and instead were stuck in the airport for hours at a time.

That's why we called this Standing Order 106(4) emergency meeting of the transport committee to schedule a series of meetings to get to the bottom of this and to make sure that if incidents happen again, they don't result in such tremendous ordeals of people being stuck for hours on end without any way of getting to their loved ones or making their business meetings and, perhaps most disturbingly of all, going hours with limited food, sometimes without electricity, and even with limited washroom facilities.

Mr. Chair, if it's okay with you, at this point I'd like to move my motion, which is to schedule a series of meetings. Mr. Chair, is that acceptable to you?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Yes, sir.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Perfect.

I believe the motion has been circulated in both official languages. If it has not, we will make sure that it is shortly.

Madam Clerk, do you have it? Yes. Perfect.

I'm going to read it in English, and then we'll make sure that everyone has an English copy and a French copy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I'll let you read it, sir. Afterwards, I want to confirm that everybody has it. If they don't, perhaps we'll suspend for two to five minutes to make sure that we can all be on the same page.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I think that's fantastic, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I'll turn the floor over to you, sir.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Perfect.

I'll read the text of our motion.

Given that,

a) Over Labour Day weekend, passengers on Via Rail train 622 from Montreal to Quebec City were stuck for 10 hours with little communication from Via, no food, no water, and even a period of no electricity, washrooms or air conditioning, I move that this committee dedicate three meetings to investigate this incident, starting the week of September 16, 2024, and hear from:

Transport Canada officials for no less than two hours;

Via Rail leadership, including the CEO of Via, for no less than two hours;

The Minister of Transport and Quebec lieutenant Pablo Rodriguez for no less than two hours by himself; and,

That this committee condemn the federal government’s failure to sustain reliable passenger transportation systems, as demonstrated by the facts below, and report this finding to the House.

b) Via passengers were stranded for over 18 hours with little to no communication during Christmas of 2022, 40% of Via trains were late in 2023, and Via paid out $11 million in bonuses in 2023 despite these failings,

c) Canadian airlines are among the lowest-ranked North American carriers when it comes to customer satisfaction and Toronto Pearson has been ranked the second-worst among the largest airports in the continent for overall traveller satisfaction.

Mr. Chair, I bring this motion with the utmost good faith and sincerity. I hope we can find resolutions and solutions so that passengers and Canadians never again have to suffer through these unneeded and horrendous delays.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lawrence.

Before I turn it over to members, I see there are a lot of hands up. I'll make sure that we get to everyone.

Why don't we suspend for five minutes so that everybody has a chance to look at what's been put forward by Mr. Lawrence?

This meeting is suspended. We'll reconvene at 11:21.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I call the meeting back to order.

Colleagues, our speakers list as it stands right now has Sherry, Luc, Xavier, Taylor and Dan.

I'll turn the floor over to Sherry. Mrs. Romanado, the floor is yours to discuss the motion put forward by Mr. Lawrence.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank my colleague for bringing forward this motion for a study.

In looking at the motion, I think we can all agree that the focus of this study and the concerns we have are about the experience of the passengers who were affected on this train. However, I don't see an opportunity for those who were actually affected on the train to provide their testimony. I think we should offer those who were affected the chance to come and share their story about what happened so that we can better understand it.

I'm trying to think of the best way that this committee could move forward to understand what happened. I think it would be great to hear from the passengers, Via Rail, Transport Canada and, of course, the minister, but I think we really need to hear from the passengers.

With that, I'd like to amend this motion to include the passengers who were on Via Rail train 622 on that date. Obviously, after part a), I don't support the statements as indicated. I would amend the motion to remove sections b) and c). I think we can all agree that the focus is to make sure that this never happens again and to understand what happened.

Again, I would like to amend the motion to include the passengers in section a). Actually, I would also amend it to include that the committee request the letter.... I believe there were media reports that the Minister of Transport issued a letter to Via Rail. I would ask that the letter from the minister to Via Rail be shared with this committee as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mrs. Romanado.

Could you clarify the aspect you'd like to have removed, just so the clerk and I can put something more concise together?

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Certainly.

The amendment is that after “Given that,” and section a), we include a bullet to include the passengers affected, and that we also remove the words from “This committee condemn...”, which make up the remainder of the motion, and replace that part with “That this committee request the letter the minister sent VIA Rail, as reported in the media.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mrs. Romanado.

We've heard the amendments as proposed by Mrs. Romanado.

I see your hand, Mr. Lawrence.

The discussion moving forward now will be about the amendments put forward by Mrs. Romanado.

The next speaker is Mr. Berthold.

Mr. Berthold, you have the floor.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am pleased to be here to talk about this totally unacceptable situation. Passengers were stranded on a Via Rail train for nearly 10 hours when they were only 45 minutes from Quebec City and barely a few minutes from Laurier‑Station, a village located in the future riding of Mégantic‑L'Érable‑Lotbinière. They were right next to it. I can guarantee that there was a way to help people get off the train and to their destination. I think it is important to be here to shed light on this situation.

Let me explain to everyone what happened. Passengers were kept in the dark and received little explanation from Via Rail throughout this awful experience. I'm going to read a few quotes from passengers who were on the stalled trains.

One passenger said:

We haven't had food since nine o'clock this morning. It's now 6:30, and people are getting impatient. What was a minor problem is now becoming a major incident.

Carmel Tanaka said:

Staff will not let us disembark, even though we are next to a highway! The toilets don't flush when they turn off the power, the air conditioning fluctuates from hot to cold, the car is filled with burning rubber scent, and there are now no snacks left on board.

Another article states that some passengers had panic attacks or were in tears. People had to call 911, and people with health issues had to be evacuated. It is unacceptable to go through this in 2024, and even more so when you consider the government's history of chaos in the passenger transportation industry. It should not have happened, especially given what occurred in 2022. As my colleague Philip Lawrence said, in 2022, passengers were stuck on a train for 18 hours. That happened in Cobourg, Ontario. What did the government learn from that incident? Absolutely nothing.

Also in 2022, there was chaos at the airports, as everybody remembers. For hours, passengers were stuck at Pearson and Pierre Elliott Trudeau airports. This is unacceptable.

Two years later, a similar event happens in Quebec, on a Via Rail train, and it seems that there was no plan to help passengers. This is an unacceptable situation. The government has dropped the ball.

In my opinion, we need to support my colleague Mr. Lawrence's original motion. I agree that we should listen to the passengers' accounts; they have a lot to say. I think this is a logical and reasonable addition. We need to listen to what they have to say. The government must listen to reason once and for all and understand that it has a role to play in this situation. We cannot ignore what happened in the past and pretend this is the first time. We must condemn the attitude of the federal government, which failed to adopt measures after the chaos of 2022. That is why I think it is important to keep the second part of the motion, which states that the committee condemns the federal government's inability to sustain reliable passenger transportation systems, as demonstrated by the events that occurred in the winter and Christmas of 2022.

For all these reasons, I am pleased to see that the committee is moving in the right direction. We want to hear from the Minister of Transport, the Department of Transport, the CEO of Via Rail and the passengers. However, it cannot be treated as an isolated incident. It is not an isolated incident; it is the result of nine years of inaction by the Liberal government on passenger transportation. We must condemn this attitude.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Berthold.

Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, you now have the floor.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I want to say that I also found it absolutely unacceptable to see people stuck on a train for 10 hours, especially since this isn't the first time this has happened. In fact, it happened in December 2022, during the holidays. We were told at the time that corrective measures would be applied, lessons would be learned and action would be taken. As it happens, here we are in a similar situation almost two years later. That can only be annoying for just about everyone around the table today.

I would have proposed the same amendment as my colleague: adding passengers who were affected by this incident to the list of witnesses. I'm very pleased to see that this has been added to the motion.

I have to say that I am a little more torn when it comes to the second part of the amendment. Basically, I tend to agree with the Conservatives, who say that the government has failed to ensure a reliable transportation system in Canada. We need only look at the record of the Canadian Transportation Agency, for example. Every time agency officials appear before the committee, they tell us that the processing time for complaints is longer than it used to be. People are discouraged; we're talking about a year and a half to resolve complaints. That delay has been getting longer and longer for years. There has been chaos at the airports, as one of my colleagues pointed out. The issue of a reliable transportation system certainly needs to be addressed. In addition, we see that the problem at Via Rail has not been resolved and that it is ongoing.

The only reservation I would have about the Conservatives' initial motion is this: I get the feeling we are writing the conclusions in advance for the study we want to do. That is why I am a little more torn on the second part of the motion, even though I agree with the substance. I think the most important thing is to add the passengers who were affected to the list of witnesses. As to whether or not the last part of the Conservative motion should be retained, I think we could always include those elements in the committee's report.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours, sir.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you.

It's good to see everyone again. It's good to be back at TRAN.

I'm joining you from Prince Rupert, the westernmost terminus of Via Rail service. It's a spot that some of you visited on the port tour we did something like a year ago.

I also want to congratulate Mr. Lawrence on his appointment as the new transport critic. It's good to have him at this committee.

On this motion that's been put forward, I share my colleagues' concern about what happened. I don't think anyone wants to see situations of rail passengers being put in a really challenging situation, with limited amenities and a lot of uncertainty about when they're going to get home to their loved ones. It's good to hear a shared level of concern around the table.

When it comes to the details of the motion, I think there are ways it can be improved. Mrs. Romanado pointed out a couple of them. I certainly support the idea of hearing from passengers.

I am concerned about a couple of other aspects. One is that the motion states some facts that are currently unclear. It states that there was no food and no water. Now, I've had a chance to meet with Via Rail about this and be briefed, and they assert that food and water were provided, although not in unlimited quantities. I think we need to be careful about making claims or statements when the intention of this study is to figure out exactly what happened.

Similarly, I believe the second part of the motion, which condemns the government, would be more appropriate after we figure out what happened, what the limitations were, what the situation looked like precisely and what the government's role was.

I'm very curious to know, because this happened at Christmas 2022.... At the time, the transport minister put out a strongly worded statement, demanding that Via Rail get to the bottom of it and make changes. I'm curious what changes the government made in 2022 that could have prevented this from happening, whether those changes were effective and whether there were things that didn't get implemented. There are a whole host of questions we can ask to get to the bottom of whether this could have been prevented.

I think there are some unique challenges when you have a train stranded in the middle of nowhere. There are some unique challenges in getting those passengers to the nearest station and home to their loved ones.

I know that in the U.K., for instance, they have surplus equipment stationed at strategic points along the corridor for situations precisely like this so that the passenger service provider can go to the aid of a stranded train and push it to the station. We don't have that in Canada. We have a rail system that, frankly, is underfunded and doesn't have enough resources—

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Just amicably, Mr. Bachrach, it was not in the middle of nowhere; it was just beside my riding.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Berthold.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

As someone who has a very large riding—the size of Poland—I take the point. I apologize profusely. Of course these places are unique and important places and they are not in the middle of nowhere. I was trying to characterize the relative remoteness. It wasn't going through the heart of an urban centre. My apologies.

Anyway, to get more to the point, I support adding passengers to the witness list. I would like us to remove the statement that there was no food or water, because I don't think that has been established yet. It is certainly something we can ask Via Rail, and we can ask the passengers what they were provided.

I also support Mrs. Romanado's amendment to remove the other two parts.

To me, the airports thing feels like a separate topic. I understand it's transportation. However, if we're going to create an omnibus motion that condemns the government for all of their failings on passenger transportation, I'd love something in there about their failure to replace Greyhound with any semblance of an effective passenger bus system in this country. Of course, we could go on and on. My preference would be to keep it short and to the point and to call the witnesses. This is an important study.

I know Via Rail is motivated and certainly willing to appear before the committee. I hope the minister shares their willingness and that we can get to the bottom of this and then report our findings to the House and improve our passenger rail system so passengers don't face similar circumstances in the future.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I guess I can't amend an amendment. Is that correct? Is doing that not our practice? Do we frown on that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Yes, and then we're going to have to deal with yours, followed by Mrs. Romanado's, and then go to the main motion as amended.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I believe Mrs. Romanado is first in the queue with her amendments. Perhaps we can deal with hers, and then we can come back to mine. It's also not the hill I'm going to die on, Mr. Chair.