Transport Committee on Dec. 10th, 2024

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Okay. They can occur very quickly after a derailment.

Is the capacity of communities to evacuate rapidly in such a situation evaluated as part of approving emergency response assistance plans?

[Michel Béland]

Yes. In an emergency response assistance plan, you are looking at the equipment available, along with the technical advice that—

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Specifically, I'm asking about evacuation plans.

[Michel Béland]

I'd have to consult with my experts on that one.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

If you could get back to the committee, it would be appreciated.

One of the techniques for reducing the risk of a BLEVE is to spray it continuously with water. Does Transport Canada evaluate municipal water supplies to ensure there is adequate flow to maintain that cooling spray of water on a tank car for the amount of time required to empty the car of dangerous goods during an incident?

[Michel Béland]

I'll have to confirm that with my experts.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

If you could get back to the committee, it would be wonderful.

The BLEVE table is based on events involving a single tank car. Is it fair to assume that a BLEVE event involving a train composed of dozens of tank cars would be of greater consequence than the numbers indicated in the table?

[Michel Béland]

I think that's fair to say, yes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

The emergency response distance is also indicated in the table for a potential BLEVE involving the same tank car. That distance is 457 metres.

Do I read correctly that first responders should not get within 457 metres of a tank car at risk of a BLEVE?

[Michel Béland]

That's what the chart says, yes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

How do first responders put water on the car to cool it if they can't get within 457 metres? I've seen our fire departments work. They do incredible work, but they can't spray water that far. How do they do it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Mr. Bachrach, that is a phenomenal question, and I'm sure we're going to get a response to it in the next round.

I'm also going to provide a mirror to all of our witnesses so they can hold it up and get a visual of me holding up the red flag for the last two minutes.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[An hon. member]

You could make a little chirping sound, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I could.

Thank you very much, Mr. Bachrach.

Next, we have Mr. Muys.

Mr. Muys, the floor is yours. You have five minutes, sir.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the officials who are here.

The train that was the subject of the tragedy in Lac-Mégantic travelled, if I'm correct, through Windsor, Detroit, Toronto and Montreal before its tragedy.

I want to pick up on the questions from my colleague Mr. Lawrence.

We can talk all we want about the phasing out of cars, producing some guide or document that I suppose you look at when a tragedy has occurred and the number of recommendations that have been implemented, but it seems obvious that, longer-term, the answer is that oil and gas in particular should be travelling by pipeline and not on rail. I realize that there's an issue with the capacity of pipelines, certainly because the current government has an aversion to building pipelines, but, longer-term, that is a better answer than all the risks that are being taken.

I wonder whether the department has voiced that concern to other federal departments or to the respective ministers of transport, that there is a better way to do things and that we need to move away from this.

[Stephen Scott]

Thank you for the question. I think it's an important question. I don't know if I have an answer for you.

Our colleagues at Natural Resources Canada are the lead for pipelines and oil and gas policy. The role of Transport Canada as the safety and security regulator touches air, marine, road and rail, so we're focused on the safety and security regulatory regimes for those modes.

It's an important question. I think it will have to be directed to Natural Resources Canada, or we can take it back to see what information we can get in terms of the analysis you're looking for.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Okay. I would suggest that Transport Canada has an obligation to Canadians to at least voice that concern with your counterparts in Natural Resources Canada, but we'll move on.

Protective direction No. 36 mandates rail companies to share data on dangerous goods with communities. Does Transport Canada monitor compliance with this directive to ensure that the communities are receiving accurate and timely information?

[Michel Béland]

Do we monitor the compliance of the rail companies providing the data? Yes, we do monitor compliance. We do look at whether the carriers are providing that data to municipalities, and we will follow up if we see that it's not being received.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

In your follow-up, do you talk to municipalities to see if they're acting on that data and incorporating that into their emergency management plans or providing any feedback or input on that?

[Michel Béland]

No, we're not asking the municipalities whether they're using that data. We're not following up with the municipalities.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Are they receiving the data in real time, or are there periodic reports?

[Michel Béland]

There are periodic reports. There's an annual report that the carriers have to produce of the top 10 dangerous goods that are flowing through that jurisdiction or that community. Then there are interim reports throughout the year that are about the volume and the nature of the dangerous goods that are flowing through that community.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Is there an impediment to doing that in real time? Is there a system to do that, or is that just not feasible? Would that be a better approach so you could be prepared to act upon it?

[Michel Béland]

I'm sorry; was that about sharing it in real time?