Evidence of meeting #144 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was plans.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Chief Case.
Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.
Next we'll go back to Mr. Muys.
The floor is yours. You have five minutes, sir.
Conservative
Dan Muys Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON
Chief Case, you said, of course, that prevention versus response is obviously the preferred way of going about things. I asked Transport Canada officials last meeting about direction 36 and the frequency with which data is provided to communities about what's travelling through. You said earlier on that the data is primarily used for training purposes, because it's periodic and it's after the fact. I asked them whether real-time data was possible, and they didn't seem to think so.
I'm just wondering what would be optimal in terms of achieving a frequency of data that would give you something to act upon and prepare for in the vein of that prevention, rather than just receiving something after the fact and using it only for training purposes. What would be possible?
Fire Chief, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
Knowing that something is coming through the area with a couple of hour's notice might not be any help at all, but if there was a trends analysis to show that....
I'll give you an example. When I look at my own direction 36 data, it used to be very much alcohols. We have a plant that manufactures alcohol in Chatham-Kent, and we're very used to dealing with that. Then we began to see a sudden increase in lithium-ion batteries.
If Transport Canada could say that there is a plant coming on line or there's a contract coming where we might start seeing different things, that could be helpful. We could actually get ahead of this and start proactively training rather than reactively training.
That would be one suggestion I would make.
Conservative
Dan Muys Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON
You indicated that the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs was involved in the post-Lac-Mégantic regulations on flammable liquids. Obviously, there have been some improvements, and you've indicated that as well.
Are there still some very obvious gaps or lags, or some low-hanging fruit that could be addressed quickly?
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
Absolutely. As Chief Case said, it's not just about where we are post Lac-Mégantic and the recommendations; it's about the new challenges that we haven't seen before.
Chief Case gave the example of lithium-ion batteries. Is that even on the radar of tracking?
This is why the fire chiefs are calling for a national fire administration. The fire chiefs know what the risks are. In fact, we've met with 56 countries over the summer at the World Fire Congress. These issues need to be brought to the forefront, as Chief Case said, in a holistic and systematic way. They can't be in our blind spot.
We don't expect policy-makers to be fire chiefs. We expect them to be policy-makers. They need a mechanism to coordinate and get fire service expertise, like the one we're lucky to have here today.
December 12th, 2024 / 5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Muys Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Masterson, you talked about the fact that you're focused on the future. You talked, I think, about some virtual reality technology. This is all beyond me, but I actually had a chance last month, at a LiUNA training centre, to see the use of this virtual technology in training people on equipment, which I thought was interesting.
Maybe you can talk a bit about some of the new technology and innovations that are being used through your association and your association's members, that will help change this landscape in the future.
We can talk about what's been done in the past, but there may be tech that's going to really help advance things and make things safer just because of where we are, which is 40 years from when Responsible Care actually started.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Chemistry Industry Association of Canada
Thank you.
I would certainly encourage this committee to speak directly to the railways. There have been a number of comments here that are simply factually not true. They are the real driving force for rail safety. If you look at the equipment and the spend that CN and CPKC have put toward improved rail safety, they're best to talk about that.
What I would say is that the job of either preparing for or preventing, and responding to an emergency is not borne solely by the municipalities. Industry, from the shippers right through the railway providers and emergency contractors, does shoulder a lot of those costs. For the smaller communities, when you talk to the railways, ask them about how they pre-position emergency response equipment so that it is available in those instances where it takes more time to get there.
There's a lot of work. It's good work. We're all in this together. It's not a case of industry, and railways especially, trying to dodge their responsibilities. I think Canada's two class 1 railways are incredible leaders in rail safety.
There's always more to do, but they will work with you to get there. Please do speak to them directly.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Masterson.
Next, we'll go to Mr. Badawey.
The floor is yours for five minutes, sir.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chief, I want to drill down a bit more on the overall planning and protocols that you're a part of. Quite frankly, when you see the panel here today, for the most part these are people who would otherwise sit around the table when you have those situations.
Prevention is first and foremost, and with that comes disaster mitigation, something that this government has invested in over the past three or four years, from both the operational and the capital sides, which are extremely important.
Also important are the CERTs, the community emergency response teams, that you put in place from the operational side; evaluating the risks within the municipality, which I'll get back to in a second; and, with that, recognizing, as was just mentioned, the sectors that are well-equipped—rail, industry, etc.—on the capital side of it in terms of having equipment in place or overall planning with the CERTs that are part of the community.
What is also important is the capital, and when I say the capital, I mean really taking into consideration the secondary planning and actually recognizing that if you have a leak from a train, it may leach into the water system, and, therefore, recognizing how important it is to also have as part of the process the engineers of the city, public works operations and others such as that, like coordination, training and communication.
How do you inform the public? Sometimes it's quiet at three o'clock in the morning, so how is the public informed that they should not drink the water the next day? Of course, there are plans and protocols attached to that.
To you, Chief, with all that said, run us through the process. First, who should be sitting around that table? Second, give us an example of the prevention models your exercises are participating in with those people. Third, how far do you go with those you would otherwise include around that table, including not just the obvious in terms of the emergency responders but also the others in the city's operations, jurisdictional operations and others who are very relevant to individual situations? By the way, what about the capital needed to pay for that?
Fire Chief, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
We're getting into two very different focuses here. We have emergency response, and we have emergency management. In a lot of areas, the fire chief is both the emergency management coordinator and the fire chief.
In the event that the incident takes place, the emergency response will immediately go. That level of response is determined by council, whether or not they are in haz-mat operations, technical or even just in awareness. Awareness is that they can actually identify what's on fire, what's involved and then call for help. That's about all they can do, and then they can do evacuations and the like.
Should that then become something that is beginning to impact large numbers of people, as you know, the mayor might declare an emergency. An emergency operations centre will be declared, and that is when you get the industry partners. You get all the community partners, like the director of the PUC, police, EMS, fire and all the municipal departments. Even some of the charities are then around that table, trying to manage the incident and support the operations that are going ahead.
That is immense, and speaking as somebody who has had three ongoing emergencies simultaneously, that basically stops your municipality, and you're all working just to deal with an emergency. It's incredibly time-consuming. It's incredibly impactful on all the members of staff, not to mention the actual trauma that it brings to the community.
To answer your question, it very much depends on what it is we're dealing with.
I will say one thing. When Lac-Mégantic happened, I was still in the U.K. We studied it as firefighters, and I recall seeing a firefighter say that he arrived to a wall of fire and there was nothing they could do. There is nothing that causes more feelings of helplessness in a firefighter's mind than to show up at an incident and not be able to do anything.
That is the problem that you face. We can have all the safety issues we want and we can have all the safety plans, but in that time between it happening and our actually getting control of the situation, that's when that time belongs to the community.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
Thanks, Chief.
Sometimes we have to recognize the reality of the situation we may be involved in with respect to the financing. I know in my day, when I was involved in some of those situations, I had on my right my clerk and I had on my left my director of corporate services, which included finance, and there were decisions that had to be made on the fly with respect to finance.
My question to you is this: Depending on the capacity of the jurisdiction, the community, is there a need for financial support in individual circumstances, first, within your operations and, second, primarily beforehand, within the capital side of it? Can the federal government, as well as the provinces and territories, participate so that it, therefore, doesn't simply default to the property taxpayer or the water and waste-water ratepayer?
Fire Chief, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
What I can tell you is that, out of the three emergency services in my area, the police are always very well funded, because it's very political. The police usually get quite a lot of grant money, and they're also not particularly equipment heavy. You get an incident, and you might have an officer arriving in a car. EMS is 50% funded by the Province of Ontario. If you have a house fire, you probably have about 8 million dollars' worth of equipment showing up, and all of that is on the property taxpayer, every single bit.
As we said in our opening statement, we need to start looking at ways that we can get equipment to the scene and keep our firefighters equipped so that they can deal with all ranges of incidents, not just the huge ones we're talking about today.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
You are out of time, sir, well over time, but I didn't want to cut off Chief Case. He was making very valid points that were interesting to the committee.
Mr. Barsalou Duval, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm going to follow up a little bit on Mr. Masterson's comments from the Chemistry Industry Association of Canada. He said that falsehoods have been spread, that the entire responsibility for risks and costs rests with municipalities.
Mr. Lessard, perhaps I'll ask my question differently.
To your knowledge, has the railway company in your region, which transports dangerous goods, ever covered the cost of fire stations? Has it ever incurred any costs for equipment? Does it pay for the firefighters who are on duty?
I don't know if it's Canadian National or Canadian Pacific in your area. I'm assuming it's Canadian National.
I'm not an expert on how that works in general. However, to my knowledge, the railway companies may be contributing to the training or information provided to you. However, does your municipality cover all those other costs, or are the railways also involved?
Mayor, Ville de Saint-Basile-le-Grand
No. The municipalities bear those costs.
I have to acknowledge one thing. Our fire departments are very well trained. They do a good job when an incident or accident occurs. Municipalities are also able to move forward based on their needs and respond to an incident or accident.
That being said, I'm not just concerned about costs. What I'm hearing is that you care about responding to an accident or incident, but care very little or not at all about preventing such an incident or accident from happening.
Indeed, they feel comfortable in saying that they can provide the town with a list of hazardous materials. As I explained, they could do the same thing for citizens and provide them with a list of hazardous materials. However, that won't prevent an accident or incident. What do railway companies or companies that transport hazardous materials by rail do to prevent an incident or accident from happening? What do they do at the source?
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
I think your point is excellent, but I'd like to come back to the issue of costs. In your opinion, is the cost sharing fair?
Mayor, Ville de Saint-Basile-le-Grand
No, it isn't fair at all because those companies don't participate. As for our municipality, we're involved in the maintenance of railway tracks at level crossings, where cars pass through, and we bear the costs. However, railway companies and companies that transport hazardous goods through our territory don't share the costs of firefighters or of managing situations that concern the city as such.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Lessard.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you, Mr. Mayor.
Next we have Mr. Bachrach for two and a half minutes.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Chief Casey, you described situations in which it's just not going to be possible for local fire departments to attack a fire, to get in there and respond directly, and there's a need to get people out. There's a need for people to self-evacuate.
It would seem to me that this is made harder by the emergency response distance that's recommended, which is 450 metres.
I talked to a local fire chief who spoke of the challenge that presents for firefighters, because the people in that radius are their neighbours, and it's going to be very difficult to hold them back when they know people who work in those buildings right next to the railroad.
What is the best practice for alerting people and quickly evacuating them from situations, when first responders can't get close enough to knock on their door?
Fire Chief, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
It's very difficult to pin down a best practice, because, again, this comes down to geography and other such things. Alerting people can be done through.... We've used reverse-911 systems, systems of alerting through mobile phones. We can actually do the federal and provincial alerts, which alert everybody's phones, but, again, that all takes time.
In my experience, the most effective way of evacuating people is when someone has to knock on their door and basically say, “You need to leave.” People will see something on their phone, and when they get that trusted face at the door.... I've seen firefighters and police officers pleading with people to leave their homes. We can't force anybody to leave their homes.
In terms of best practice, that would really be an interesting point, from a federal perspective, about what would be the best way to do this over a wider area, but I accept your chief's point: Some of the evacuation distances listed in the ERG are flabbergasting. We're talking kilometres, especially at night, when people are asleep. It is a significant challenge.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Mr. Mayor, I wonder whether I could ask you, based on what you know about your community and what you've heard at these hearings, whether you feel your residents are adequately protected from major incidents involving dangerous goods.
Mayor, Ville de Saint-Basile-le-Grand
The answer is no. They aren't well protected.