Evidence of meeting #144 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was plans.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much. You did that well, Mr. Bachrach.
Thank you very much, Mr. Mayor.
Next we go to Mr. Lawrence. Mr. Lawrence, you have five minutes, sir.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON
Thank you very much
I've listened to the testimony intently, and I think I've picked up a fairly considerable disconnect between what Mr. Masterson is saying and what the mayor and the chief are saying. I want to be clear here: I'm not blaming anyone. I just want to get to the root of it and, hopefully, help solve this issue.
I start with you, Mr. Masterson. Do you believe it would be of value—if, in fact, one of these high-consequence events were to happen—for the first responders to have information with respect to the potentially dangerous substances that might be manufactured by your members? Perhaps you could expand, if you don't mind, as to what the differences or responses might be with respect to, maybe, a couple of the most dangerous chemicals that would be produced by your members.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Chemistry Industry Association of Canada
To start with your first question, certainly, on the disconnect you spoke about, I don't think there's a disconnect. I think we're talking about a lot of different things, and they're getting twisted together. We hear about prevention, and then we hear about response.
What I was saying about who bears the cost for prevention is that there were many millions of dollars spent—tens of millions—on the upgrades to new railcars to keep the product in. I think we heard there were 2,000 violations of the regulations, but only—what was it I heard?—eight of them led to a release. That's eight too many, but that's because of the equipment that's put in place, the tank car standards, the investments the railways have made on.... We used to have a lot of incidents because of bearings overheating. That's almost eliminated because of the boxes they have. Every single car, every bearing, is tested or signalled. That's the disconnect here. There's a lot of money spent on prevention. Don't lose sight of that.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON
What I was trying to get at, though, is that it appears as though your evidence or testimony is that your industry provides information as to the contents of various freight trains and so forth, but it doesn't appear as though that information is actually of much value, if I can be candid, with our first responders. I'm just looking to bridge that gap. Surely, of the chemicals that you would have, different chemicals would require different responses and, perhaps most importantly, might have different impacts on first responders who are rushing in there to save people.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Chemistry Industry Association of Canada
I have three quick responses.
First of all, there was a misstatement earlier. It is not the railways that prepare the ERAPs. It's the producers or the importers of the substance that's regulated that prepare the ERAPs and how they have to be administered. That's an important piece of information for you right there, to make sure you understand.
Again, that ERAP will talk about the means of containment, and that will differ depending on the commodity in question. Certainly, you may wish to look a little deeper into toxic inhalation hazards and those few substances—whether that's ammonia, chlorine or ethylene oxide—and how those get managed.
One of the things to remember, when the question about prevention comes up—and this is really important too—is that, when industry has the choice, it will not ship those products. If you're making ethylene oxide, and you have a customer who wants to turn it into another product, guess what? You're going to locate on that site where it's produced, so it doesn't have to go on the tracks to begin with.
However, when you talk about farming and having to move around anhydrous ammonia, or water treatment for municipalities, these goods must be moved. There are residual risks that can't be overcome, but the questions are: Are we taking more steps for prevention, and are we better prepared to respond? Those are two different questions, and they're both very important for the business of this committee.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON
Thank you, Mr. Masterson.
I go back to the fire chief, Mr. Case. What I was trying to get at—and maybe unsuccessfully with Mr. Masterson there—is the fact that I find it quite troubling that your firefighters would be driving up, potentially, to an explosive scene or even just a potentially dangerous scene, and not have immediate information as to what they're going into. First of all, I just want to clarify that I did understand you correctly on that.
Fire Chief, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
It very much depends on the call. If we get a derailment and an accident, a 911 call will be made, and that information will be key. The dispatcher will then send a fire crew to a railway derailment where there are potential chemicals involved.
It could be the case that the rail company phones in and says exactly what it is and, “We have plans in place,” but when you look at where it could happen, what could be around there, the differences.... There are so many variables that it would be really difficult to have a very specific plan for that one specific incident, should it happen at any time of day or night.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON
Like Mr. Masterson, I just see your members as being incredibly valuable in this. It's not just one chemical. There might be multiple chemicals mixing together, which can create entirely different circumstances, and, as much as the firefighters might train, there's just no way they're going to understand that.
I guess I'll leave it there. I have another question round. I'll come back to you, gentlemen. Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Lawrence.
Mr. Lauzon, you have the floor for five minutes.
December 12th, 2024 / 5:40 p.m.
Liberal
Stéphane Lauzon Liberal Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here. This is an issue that affects me personally.
Mr. Masterson, when I was chairman of the Commission de la sécurité publique de la Ville de Gatineau, during the work on a public transit system, we studied six problem intersections and met with stakeholders. We even met with representatives of the Quebec Government and the federal government, including the Transportation Safety Board of Canada, the TSB.
However, I don't remember a time when an organization such as yours, the Chemistry Industry Association of Canada, was involved in the whole process. Is there a lack of communication, or are you more used to dealing with cities through Transport Canada or the TSB to issue recommendations and get involved in the social acceptability process?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Chemistry Industry Association of Canada
Yes, as the association for the producers we deal with the policy-makers, the regulators and the lawmakers. The individual companies will be engaging with municipalities on incidents involving their goods and how to prepare for that.
We do some collective work. I mentioned the work on TRANSCAER and TEAP, which is collective across our association. In the past, we visited Gatineau, Ottawa and many of the municipalities represented on this call. That is done through the association, but, again, it's the expertise of our member companies, the railways and emergency responders that do come.
Liberal
Stéphane Lauzon Liberal Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC
I have a follow-up question. In the process surrounding a project, are you an integral part of the solutions to ensure the social acceptability of implementing a new system in a network?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Chemistry Industry Association of Canada
It's a highly regulated industry, and there's very little that's as highly regulated as the transportation of dangerous goods. It's a very thorough regime. Again, this is a question of improving it for the future, and we're all for that.
We are involved with Transport Canada, with their dangerous goods committees, to bring the industry together and respond to the proposals that are being made. I don't think that, if you asked Transport Canada, you would hear resistance from industry, whether that's the shippers or the carriers, to these measures. It's, “How do we do this in a way that's actually achievable?”
President and Chief Executive Officer, Chemistry Industry Association of Canada
The question has come up—if I may add one brief thing, again—about the information that's available. We should commend groups, like the Railway Association of Canada and its members, that have put in the AskRail app on their phones so that the first responders, immediately, when they see a car number, can put that in. They will know the product; they'll know if it's full or empty, and it will link them right away to other information they need, including who to call and the CANUTEC information on how to handle that safely. There's a lot of information.
We could do better, but let's not make the assumption that there's no information or that the industry or the railways are trying to keep this private. That is not the case.
Liberal
Liberal
Stéphane Lauzon Liberal Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC
I have a simple question for you.
I represent small municipalities. I have 41 of them in my riding, and there are a number of industries. Chemical materials circulate on the territory. There are also volunteer firefighters everywhere.
On the other hand, you can't even build a two- or three-storey apartment building, because the firefighters don't have the training needed to use a tall ladder; in fact, they don't even have such a truck.
We're talking about awareness, training and national coordination for those small municipalities. However, I can't imagine the gap between reality and where we should be heading. What is the role of government? What concrete steps can be taken to get as close as possible to what's being proposed? This work will take a long time.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
That's a very important issue. We want to talk about a national fire authority.
Right now it's almost impossible.
Because of that scale, it makes hard to predict all of the issues that will be in the blind spots. We need to better engage the fire sector up front in this type of planning.
Oh, I can see your red card there, so....
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
Our best recommendation is for a national fire administration, and we'd be happy to give the committee more information.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you. Feel free to submit any additional information you'd like us to consider as testimony.
Thank you, Mr. Lauzon.
Next, we'll go back to Mr. Lawrence.
Mr. Lawrence, the floor is yours. You have five minutes, sir.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON
Thank you.
I'll get back to the line of questioning I was on before.
One of the elements that came up was with respect to batteries. Obviously, with the growth in the electric car sector and electric buses, there are going to be some massive batteries, and massive numbers of batteries are going to be on the rails.
We've all seen videos of firefighters trying to put out a single vehicle battery and it reigniting. What training or what resources has Transport Canada given you? Has the federal government given you any support with respect to those batteries?
Fire Chief, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
When it comes to lithium-ion batteries, somebody once commented to me that if you ask five firefighters their opinion on how to fight a lithium-ion battery, you'll get eight different answers. We do not have a single guidance on how to do this.
In addition to the fact that this is being placed on a rail car and being put through communities, the whole issue of lithium batteries is one of the big things that my 50 colleagues talked about two weeks ago when they came to visit you and your colleagues. That is just an example of the unknown coming down the pipe that we have yet to understand the full ramifications of, and that's for all fire departments—not just the small volunteer fire departments, but even the larger ones as well.
In every conversation I have with fire chiefs, lithium-ion batteries come up—cancer prevention, lithium-ion batteries and fire code changes. It's always one of the first things we talk about, because one thing we do not like is not knowing how to deal with something, and, to a certain extent, lithium-ion batteries are a big unknown at the moment.
Conservative
Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON
With the massive numbers of lithium-ion batteries that are going to be on our rails and on our roads, we don't currently have a set federal standard as to how to deal with those. Is that correct?
I'm not criticizing, by the way. I just think this is a problem that we need to solve.