Evidence of meeting #35 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pilots.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON
Thank you.
My next question is for Captain Tim Perry.
Captain Perry, you mentioned that there was real strain on pilots because of their low pay. Can you elaborate on that and on whether that was the reason pilots left Canada and went elsewhere?
5:15 p.m.
Capt Tim Perry
The supply and demand curve for any human resource—or any resource, for that matter—is pretty elastic. I think our position is that the value of pilots has evolved over some period of time. Pilots are leaving for better jobs either within our country or outside of our country. I think that's in part a reflection of how the pay at various companies has been slow to evolve.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON
Are there any government-sponsored internship or training programs that would attract under-represented communities to that industry?
5:15 p.m.
Capt Tim Perry
We've actually long held the view that we need to invest in exactly that type of programming so that we can attract and retain pilots. We want to attract pilots at the very entry level of the industry, at the training centres. Then we also need fair, collectively bargained contracts to attract and retain pilots throughout their career.
If there are programs such as that, there are too few of them. It's absolutely our view that they should be a major focus of this country's investment, starting now.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you, Dr. Lewis. Thank you, Mr. Perry.
Next we have Ms. Koutrakis. Ms. Koutrakis the floor is yours. You have six minutes.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Annie Koutrakis Liberal Vimy, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all our witnesses for appearing before our committee this afternoon on this very important study. Thank you to you and to all your members for all the incredible work you've been doing during the pandemic. I know this has been a very trying time for everyone. When we hear in the testimony that there have been collaborative efforts between governments and all stakeholders, I think that is a testament to who we are as Canadians. I thank you very much for that.
Mr. von Schoenberg, we have heard a lot of discussion about how delays in processing medical certificates are exacerbating labour shortages. Is this an issue with air traffic controllers? What has been the experience of your organization?
5:20 p.m.
President, Canadian Air Traffic Control Association
It has been an experience or a problem. I would not characterize it as a widespread problem, but we did have some issues, obviously, over the course of the pandemic.
As I mentioned in my opening remarks, we work in a stressful occupation. There are medical licensing requirements along the lines of those that pilots have. A number of people lost their licences for various reasons. We encountered a number of difficulties and delays with the bureaucracy, with the medical officers, in getting licences back.
We did raise that issue with Minister Alghabra and with other officials in the ministry. I believe they took steps to address it. Our experience recently has been that it seems to be much better. We're talking about a fairly small sample size. I don't want to say it's completely resolved; there are still some issues, but it seems to be much better than it was. I wouldn't say it's a major problem at this time.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Annie Koutrakis Liberal Vimy, QC
Well, great, and I'm really happy to hear that. I know that we can always do better, and the fact that we're doing better is really great.
Continuing with you, Mr. von Schoenberg, is there new technology that could facilitate the work of air traffic controllers and reduce the stress on them? Also, in general, what is your attitude towards technological innovation?
5:20 p.m.
President, Canadian Air Traffic Control Association
That's a giant question.
Yes, in air traffic control, there's a lot of technology. It's a very tech-heavy field. I know that the company has several initiatives they're pursuing—
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Excuse me, Mr. von Schoenberg. I'm sorry to cut you off.
Ms. Koutrakis, we have an indication that a vote has been called, so I want to ask for unanimous consent by members to continue with the round of questions.
I see no objections. Thank you very much.
Mr. von Schoenberg, please proceed.
5:20 p.m.
President, Canadian Air Traffic Control Association
There are several major tech initiatives that the company is undertaking. I think it's fair to say that there is a lot of promise around what technology can do for our occupation, and it has in the past made it much better and easier. At the same time, there's another side to that: We have to manage all that technology.
One of the observations I'll make with respect to the aviation industry is that in airlines there's a highly regulated standardized process that the introduction of all tech goes through. The same case isn't true for the ANSP, the air navigation service provider. That is one of the things we'd like to see addressed. We'd like to see more consideration for human factors considerations when new tech is introduced, and we would like more government involvement in terms of oversight to ensure that when new technology is brought into air traffic control, it actually does what it is supposed to do and makes the job safer and better. My sense is that at times the tech agenda sort of takes on its own life, and it's tech for the sake of tech.
We really should be asking ourselves what problem we are solving when we introduce new technology, and we should make sure that it's doing what it is intended to do.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Annie Koutrakis Liberal Vimy, QC
Thank you.
Any one of our witnesses can chime in on this question, and I hope we have time, Mr. Chair. I'm interested in learning how much co-operation there is between industry and unions in addressing labour shortages in each of your sectors in a more strategic way. How could this be fostered?
October 26th, 2022 / 5:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Canada's Building Trades Unions
Maybe I could take that, MP Koutrakis, with the consent of the Chair.
In the unionized construction industry, we work hand in hand with our employers. If our union contractors aren't going to work, our union members aren't going to work.
When it comes to labour force development, to workforce development, we have dozens of diversity programs across the country, and in many jurisdictions our employers are part of what are called “joint apprenticeship and training trusts”. In those, we work hand in hand to plan labour force requirements for our specific trades in specific regions right across the country.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Annie Koutrakis Liberal Vimy, QC
Okay. What are some of the wages and benefits that each of your industries is improving in order to attract more workers, and if not, why not?
5:25 p.m.
President, Canadian Air Traffic Control Association
Well, we're just about to go into collective bargaining, so that's a million-dollar question. We'll see. We'll see what happens.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Ms. Koutrakis.
We now continue with Mr. Barsalou-Duval for six minutes.
5:25 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My first question is for Mr. Perry from the Airline Pilots Association.
A few months ago, Aéroports de Montréal considerably increased the fees for flight schools, including the one at Mirabel. Yet, as is often said, there is currently a shortage of pilots.
How do you feel about airports deciding to make significant or major changes to their policies or regulations to get rid of flight schools?
In some cases they do it because of the noise. However, in the case of Mirabel Airport, as far as I know, they wanted to avoid giving a service.
5:25 p.m.
Capt Tim Perry
Thank you very much for the question. I think you raised an excellent point.
If we're going to take a step back and realize that there is a tightening labour market for pilots and we're going to think strategically about it, we can't be closing flight schools or impeding them from training pilots. We have to be doing the opposite. There are multiple ways, through consultation, that any concerns that might have been raised along the way could be addressed.
I think closing or impeding flight schools is a strategic mistake. We need to be making investments so that we have a long-term stable supply of well-trained qualified pilots in Canada. It's our obligation to do so.
The steps taken at Mirabel, from what I know and from what you've brought to the attention of all, were mistakes, I think. We have to not only learn from them but apply a broader strategy so that those types of things don't happen in the future.
5:25 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Earlier, you talked about your concern about the arrival of foreign pilots in our market. How much of a threat is that? Do many companies use foreign pilots? Do they represent a large proportion of the pilots? Why are they used? Is it necessarily because there are no pilots available here, or can there be other reasons for it?
5:25 p.m.
Capt Tim Perry
We dispute that there is a pilot shortage. I think it's an oversimplification to state it that way. I also think that bringing in TFWs comes with multiple problems. As I mentioned, these pilots are coming from other jurisdictions, where we have less visibility and potentially less confidence in their safety systems and their training and qualifications. That's not a statement across the board, but it applies in some cases.
Also, when a pilot comes to work as a TFW, the continuation of their employment relies specifically on their employer agreeing to continue to employ them. That fundamentally disconnects them from their union and their ability to take part in a meaningful way in collective bargaining as a member of their union, and that undermines the collective bargaining process, in our opinion. I believe we are sometimes taking pilots from potentially a severely depressed economy and bringing them here, which can also undermine the economic standards and labour standards that we've established here in Canada.
I think there are three main problems that are introduced with the introduction of TFWs. Thank you.
5:25 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
For my part, I note one thing that concerns me. Pilots are generally well paid and highly skilled workers. So when you can use homegrown pilots and you don't, it weakens our economy and our aerospace sector.
I would also like to ask a question of the representative from the Canadian Air Traffic Control Association. During the pandemic, we saw drastic service cuts at NAV Canada that were associated with drastic increases in user fees. This resulted in many air traffic controllers losing their jobs and some control towers threatening to close.
We all saw the reports over the summer about the difficulties with flight cancellations and chaos at airports. It was difficult for people to leave when they wanted to. What were the consequences of that, and how is it playing out today?
Is there a risk that the threats of closure that we've seen in the past will resurface, perhaps under the guise of a labour shortage this time, but that we'll find that, ultimately, the needs that existed during the pandemic still exist?