Transport Committee on Oct. 26th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting No. 35 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, February 3, 2022, the committee is meeting to study anticipated labour shortages in the Canadian transportation sector.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House Order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Appearing before us today we have, from the Air Line Pilots Association International, Tim Perry, president. We have, from Canada's Building Trades Unions, Sean Strickland, executive director, appearing by video conference. We have, from the Canadian Air Traffic Control Association, Nick von Schoenberg, president. From the Prince Rupert Port Authority, we have Ken Veldman, vice-president, public affairs and sustainability, by video conference; and from WestJet Airlines, we have Andrew Gibbons, vice-president, external affairs.

We will begin with opening remarks.

We'll start with the Air Line Pilots Association, International—

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to raise a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I am listening, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I would just like to have confirmation that all the witnesses using Zoom have taken an audio test for interpretation and that it was conclusive.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Yes, I was there when the tests were done. I can confirm that all the witnesses online passed a conclusive sound test.

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

We will now begin opening remarks with the Air Line Pilots Association International.

The floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Captain Tim Perry, President, Air Line Pilots Association Canada, Air Line Pilots Association International]

Thank you very much, and good afternoon.

My name is Captain Tim Perry. I am president of ALPA Canada.

On behalf of the over 6,000 professional pilots in 16 airlines in Canada, I appreciate the opportunity to provide comments to the committee for its study. I would like to comment on the pilot profession in Canada and what the outlook is for the profession, given the alarming trend we are seeing with airlines in this country seeking to hire foreign pilots instead of Canadian pilots to fill vacancies on their flight decks.

The pandemic has had a disproportionate impact on Canada's aviation sector and its workers, and it continues to be felt across the industry as the recovery continues and demand for travel returns to pre-COVID levels. ALPA maintains that the current situation regarding pilot supply has been compounded by the government's failure to provide airlines with direct and appropriate aviation-specific COVID financial assistance in a timely manner, as was done by other countries early in the pandemic.

Many airlines have also contributed to a tightening labour market due to their poor planning and management of their present workforce. The issue of pilot supply has been used as an excuse by certain airline management groups to undermine collective bargaining rights and labour standards and to deflect from other operational issues and labour shortages elsewhere in their system. Companies are simply resisting their obligation to pay the evolving market rates to attract and retain Canadian pilots. As a result, many pilots have either sought employment elsewhere in the world or have left the industry altogether.

We believe that collectively bargained financial incentives to re-enter the Canadian industry are the best solution, because these highly skilled individuals can be back on the flight line in the shortest possible time compared with training new pilots. This is equally important when it comes to retaining our pilots. Further, hiring foreign pilots to address a near-term need has safety implications—something we never say lightly—because of differing and sometimes questionable standards, as well as longer-term supply issues as these pilots return at some point to their home countries.

When it comes to finding available Canadian pilots, we do not feel airlines are doing enough. Simply put, it is improper for airlines to characterize an attraction and retention issue as a pilot shortage. For example, some of the airlines seeking temporary foreign workers have hired over 100 pilots since the post-COVID recovery began, while only growing their total number of pilots by as little as 10 or 20. This is because of the number of pilots leaving for better jobs elsewhere.

Furthermore, we must ensure that our union's collective bargaining rights are not undermined by Canadian companies relying on TFWs, foreign wet leases and improper partnerships with foreign operators.

I very much appreciate this opportunity to address you today, but to date there has been little to no meaningful dialogue between the government and aviation labour organizations regarding the pilot supply issue.

Since 2012, ALPA Canada has advocated a long-term solution to address the pilot supply in Canada. Our recommendations to the government include support for flight schools to increase capacity to train pilots, ensuring that access to financing for training is similar to financial assistance for students seeking other professions and actively participating in attracting Canadians to the industry.

In conclusion, airlines should bargain with adequate incentives to attract those Canadian pilots who have left the country or the workforce entirely before any request for foreign pilots is made. The federal government needs to take an active role in the training and retention of Canadians by aligning federal funding support for the education required to become an airline pilot with that of other highly skilled professions. The federal government must also make aviation education more accessible to minorities and under-represented groups so that our aviation workforce reflects the communities and customers our industry serves.

ALPA remains a resource in the management of aviation safety and in the sustainability of our industry. We look forward to working together with you to ensure a safe, strong and competitive airline industry in Canada.

Thank you very much. I look forward to your important questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Perry.

Next we have Canada’s Building Trades Unions. The floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Sean Strickland, Executive Director, Canada's Building Trades Unions]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. I really appreciate the opportunity to address you today on the issue of labour availability in the transportation sector.

My name is Sean Strickland. I'm the executive director of Canada's Building Trades Unions. I represent 14 international construction unions, 60 different trades and over 600,000 members across Canada. These include Teamsters Canada, which appeared before the committee previously. They represent over 125,000 members. Members of the Teamsters locals in Canada provide packaging, transportation and warehousing of goods and materials in almost every sector of the economy, including the construction sector. According to StatsCan, as of 2017, 90% of freight shipments in Canada are hauled by truck. Truck drivers are an integral part of the construction industry supply chain.

As the committee has heard, labour availability across a broad range of sectors has been heavily impacted since the pandemic. The construction industry is no different. Supply chain disruptions caused by a shortage of truck drivers have caused project delays on construction projects right across Canada. This, combined with the skilled trades shortages that our unions are experiencing, means the construction industry is facing many challenges. According to BuildForce, the industry is likely to be short about 29,000 workers in 2027.

We need workers. Workers in construction and in the trucking sector are aging, and more young workers are needed to meet the demand. The median age of truck drivers in Canada is rising rapidly. StatsCan's data also shows very high levels of job vacancies, reaching over 26,000 vacancies in Q2 of this year. The Canadian Trucking Alliance estimates that by 2024, there could be as many as 50,000 job vacancies for truck drivers across the country.

Many believe these trucking labour issues are due in part to poor working conditions. These include inadequate rest areas, especially in more rural and remote parts of Canada, along with long hours with little notice of work starts. As well, long-haul drivers are required to spend significant time away from home, which makes it particularly difficult for parents to work in the industry, especially since new generations of workers place greater emphasis on work-life balance.

The trucking industry also grapples with negative perceptions, as do the skilled trades. We need to place more value on both sectors.

Recruiting, training and retaining workers is what Canada's Building Trades Unions has been doing for over 100 years. We have 195 training centres across the country and invest over $300 million of private sector funding into our training each and every year.

Based on our experience, we would say that to address labour shortages in the transportation sector, we need to consider a multipronged approach. We need to educate more Canadians about how the trades and transportation sectors offer professional career opportunities that are open to everyone. We need to value the professionalism, skills, training and opportunities that these professions offer and the important economic impact they have on Canada.

We need to continue to invest in apprenticeship and training through federally funded programs like the Apprenticeship Service grant and union training and innovation program, which we are using to fund the Office to Advance Women Apprentices to get more women into the construction trades and which our industry is also using to expand training capacity. Similar approaches to workforce development could be put into place for the trucking and transportation sector.

Employers and government also need to work together to maintain Canada's labour standards and strengthen labour standards in the trucking sector to retain workers. This includes, as I mentioned, having more rest areas, supporting workers with families and paying workers adequate wages.

To further ensure that Canada meets its labour supply needs today, we suggest some immediate changes to Canada's immigration policies. We strongly encourage the Government of Canada to develop a construction immigration stream to bring in skilled trades immigrants. This program could be modelled after the Atlantic immigration program, which has been successful in bringing in over 12,700 newcomers, both international students and skilled workers, including truck drivers.

Through the express entry system, the government has the ability to prioritize skilled trades workers to bring more workers in faster. Earlier this year, the express entry program was opened up to truckers, a step in the right direction to address labour shortages.

There is also an opportunity to improve and strengthen the temporary foreign worker program to support the trucking sector and the larger construction industry. Right now the trucking sector is one of the largest users of the temporary foreign worker program. In many cases, these TFWs are often exploited.

To strengthen the use of the temporary foreign worker program to support the industry's long-term labour needs, the Canadian government should return to requiring unions to be consulted prior to labour market impact assessment applications, strengthen compliance measures and penalties for bad-actor employers and change the method to calculate the prevailing wage.

Additionally, to meet long-term labour needs, a framework should be established to enable unions to sponsor TFWs to gain permanent resident status.

I wish to thank the committee for this opportunity to present today, and I look forward to your questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Strickland, for your opening remarks.

Next we have the Canadian Air Traffic Control Association. The floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Nick von Schoenberg, President, Canadian Air Traffic Control Association]

Good afternoon, members of the committee. Thank you for the invitation.

I'm here today as president of the Canadian Air Traffic Control Association, more commonly known as CATCA, and I'm representing our 1,800 members from across the country.

I am accompanied by the regional vice-president, Mr. Benoit Vachon.

CATCA is a labour union and a professional association, representing air traffic controllers employed by Nav Canada. We consider ourselves important stakeholders in Canada's air navigation system. We're dedicated to the provision of safe and reliable air traffic control and air travel within Canada. The air navigation system itself is a vital component of the economy and a critical link in the supply chain for Canada.

I am an air traffic controller. I've worked in a variety of units over the course of my 26-year career. As such, I have experienced first-hand many of the issues that we'll speak about.

As are other occupations in the aviation sector, air traffic controllers are currently experiencing an acute shortage of qualified people. For air traffic controllers, however, this situation is not new but has existed to varying degrees for many years. There is no singular explanation for how we got here. There are some unique challenges facing us as we go forward. I would break these into broadly two areas.

First is recruitment and training. There was a shortage of air traffic controllers prepandemic, and the severe industry contraction during COVID resulted in a further reduction in numbers and a cessation of all training by the company. The pace and strength of recovery by the aviation sector have meant that Canada is now desperately short of air traffic controllers. What many outside of our industry do not realize is that every unit or sector in air traffic control requires individual training time unique to that unit. The total training time is approximately two years and in many cases more. The qualification rate has historically been only 30% to 40%. That, combined with the general labour shortage—which presents challenges for attracting suitable candidates—and an aging workforce, means that achieving the adequate number of air traffic controllers is going to be very difficult going forward.

Second is the job itself. Air traffic control is a highly demanding 24-7 occupation with a very high level of responsibility. All of that places a huge amount of personal stress and strain on the men and women doing it, as well as on their families. Historical short-staffing has meant that to function, the system has always relied on a high amount of overtime by controllers. This has been welcomed to some degree by workers. However, we have reached a point now where there are no longer enough controllers to provide the required hours, even when they are consistently working up to the legal maximum. This is resulting in unacceptable demands on workers, as they are routinely expected to work long days with insufficient support. The incidence of single stand time—a controller working alone with no relief—has become commonplace in our industry. CATCA does not support this practice. I believe Canadians would want at least two controllers in every control tower and control unit, in the same way that they expect more than one pilot on the flight deck. It is not responsible to rely on one unsupported controller on their own.

What do we need to do?

First, we need to focus on training, and we can't stop. We can't risk shortfalls in staffing by focusing on absolute minimum numbers. We need to build resilience into the system by developing a reliable, ongoing training system that supplies a steady stream of controllers. This should be a stated long-term objective of Nav Canada.

Second, we need to manage attrition by focusing on retention. This is perhaps the only way to address short- and medium-term challenges in staffing. Nav Canada needs to keep every air traffic controller it has, and it has to be willing to do anything it takes to do that. This goes for the entire country, but it is particularly true for some very important units such as the Toronto Pearson tower, Vancouver tower and the Montreal terminal, which are particularly vulnerable.

Third, we need to get creative and collaborative. Throughout the pandemic, labour relations reached a low point, and there have been a number of workplace initiatives and policies that have had a severely negative impact on engagement and workplace morale. If we are going to expect people to work together to get through this, then that's going to have to change. We're going to have to come up with some common sense solutions to scheduling that will unlock resources and address fatigue at the same time. We're going to need to agree on some common sense fatigue rules for air traffic controllers that the employees will actually support. We'll need to agree on ways to get controllers access to reasonable opportunities for leave and vacations when they want them so they can maintain some degree of work-life balance.

Fourth and finally, we need to develop some reliable, understandable metrics and compile data on delays, restrictions and other capacity constraints so we that have a measure on how we are doing as a system. We can't address bottlenecks in the system if we don't properly identify where they are.

Those are my remarks. I genuinely hope these observations and recommendations will assist the committee. I'd be happy to provide any further information and welcome any questions from the committee members.

Thank you very much. Merci.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you for your opening remarks, Mr. von Schoenberg.

Next we have the Prince Rupert Port Authority joining via video conference.

The floor is yours, and you have five minutes.

[Ken Veldman, Vice-President, Public Affairs & Sustainability, Prince Rupert Port Authority]

Thank you for the invitation to speak today from the traditional territories of the Ts'msyen people.

The port of Prince Rupert consists of terminals that facilitate Canadian trade through intermodal containers, dry and liquid bulk, and cruise facilities. We currently ship about 25 million to 30 million tonnes of cargo annually as well as moving 40,000 cruise passengers. Our cargo volume represents $50 billion of Canadian trade goods, making us the third-largest port in Canada. For context and to emphasize the underlying theme of growth, this represents an increase in trade from less than five million tonnes as recently as 2005. Our current investment portfolio of advanced projects is in excess of $2 billion, and we forecast that our volume will increase to over 40 million tonnes over the next decade.

Prince Rupert's continued development is integral to national supply chains, Canada's Indo-Pacific trade agenda and the interests of many industries to grow, transform and diversify in a rapidly changing world.

The recent report from the national supply chain task force makes important recommendations. It recommends immediate response actions to address labour needs, including attracting indigenous workers; expanding, expediting and supporting TFWs and immigration sources; encouraging more truck drivers; and developing a transportation supply chain labour strategy that covers important elements of labour force development. We broadly endorse all of these immediate actions and we are pleased to see the urgency that is attached to them.

In addition, we would also emphasize that supply chains have critical geographic nodes like ports, which need special attention. The port of Prince Rupert is an even more unique case, a critical node within large global supply chains in the midst of a very strong growth curve, but located in a relatively small and remote community. This situation makes it very different as a major trade gateway, in that it does not have access to a large potential labour supply in the way that large metropolitan areas do.

Getting immediate fixes for labour force shortages is challenging, given that the small population and labour force offer little resiliency and redundancy within the region. The growth of the Prince Rupert trade gateway and its supply chain businesses has provided Prince Rupert and northern B.C. with a critical economic engine. It has also benefited the national interest in terms of critical supply chain capacity, diversification and resiliency, which have benefited trade.

Prince Rupert has a population of roughly 13,000 people. About 2,000 jobs within the community are directly tied to port-related employers. It's truly a big port in a small town, and its development has been a remarkable economic development success story that includes a broad distribution of opportunity. For example, 38% of our local port labour force is indigenous, a fact that reflects the unique demographics of B.C.'s north coast. However, the reality is that the local labour force is largely maxed out. Local hirings in one business create shortages in others. Employers in sectors such as health care, education, retail, personal services, food and beverage are impacted as much as direct port employers are. Population growth through new residents is a critical factor as capacity and volume grow. Quite simply, we need more people to work, to train and to create a balanced and diversified local economy.

However, that population growth is challenged by difficulties in recruiting to a small town in a relatively isolated location. Local employers have been innovative and actively co-operate in recruiting efforts, but progress is daunting. Shortages of housing, public services and private sector services make that task more difficult. Local municipalities are challenged to keep up with infrastructure needs, in particular in Prince Rupert, where basic water, sewage treatment and road infrastructure are decades and even up to a century old.

I know that the challenges for small isolated communities to create livable cities that match modern-day expectations are not unique, but in this case, because of Prince Rupert's critical strategic role in trade and the national supply chain, the ramifications for Canada's national interest are significant. Being in a small northern town is a logistical advantage for the port, but it also creates challenges in the context of supporting fast growth. As a port authority and as a local business, we're leaning hard into solutions through local investments and capacity support, but we need more.

As part of its national supply chain strategy and associated supply chain labour force strategy, the Government of Canada should consider a more proactive role in providing direct financial assistance to port gateway municipalities to increase capital infrastructure when those increases would outstrip local financial capacity. It should also consider prioritizing local partnerships in those same regions to address labour force supply impacts and issues that result from having national trade move through local gateways.

We trust you will consider this information in your report.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much for your opening remarks, Mr. Veldman.

Next we have, from WestJet, Mr. Andrew Gibbons.

Mr. Gibbons, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Andrew Gibbons, Vice-President, External Affairs, WestJet Airlines Ltd.]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let me begin by thanking the members of the committee for inviting me to appear today to share ideas on how we can work together to support the transportation sector in Canada.

Also, I would like to congratulate the new shadow minister of transport, the member for Chilliwack-Hope, and welcome other new members of the committee.

WestJet is committed to Canada, not only as a key driver and people connector but also as an economic driver and employer. However, the COVID-19 pandemic and related travel restrictions have created the greatest crisis our company and our sector have faced. Our recovery has been long and arduous, and the impacts of the pandemic are still being felt. We’re not out of the woods. We’re still facing the effects of this crisis, including significantly increased costs of doing business, such as the cost of aviation fuel and other externalities.

Demand for travel has come surging back, and we’re doing our best to be responsible and transparent leaders, which is what our guests, our employees and indeed Parliament and government expect of us.

I'll give you some statistics to give you a sense of where we are as an organization. We currently fly more than 500 flights daily to and from 110 destinations, flying more than 50,000 guests per day. This is down from approximately 700 daily flights before the pandemic.

There’s been tremendous change in our labour situation, and we've seen the greatest pace of hiring we’ve ever seen, with more than a thousand new or returned staff in the past year, including 500 pilots, 500 cabin crew and 230 contact centre agents. We currently sit at just shy of 10,000 employees. Prepandemic, we had approximately 15,000 employees.

Unfortunately, the instability caused by an accordion of changing health measures and shutdowns saw many talented, long-term employees vacate our industry. This has been true of the entire travel and tourism sector, and WestJet has not been immune.

The crisis in our airports this summer brought home many key issues and priorities for everyone. We want to thank our guests for their support and their patience while we ironed out issues that negatively impacted their travel, issues that were of our own making.

Last summer we saw how complex it is to provide reliable travel for Canadians, as it involves the efforts of multiple agencies and skills.

While many provide services to the air traveller, it is increasingly the case that airlines bear the brunt both financially and publicly for system failures.

I do want to give credit to Minister of Transportation Omar Alghabra for working to bring all players to the table during this crisis to find solutions and for doing it in the Canadian way. We just have to look at the public fighting and arguments that happened in other nations. Those didn’t happen here, and that’s a testament to everyone involved and to his leadership.

At WestJet, we’re committed to acting responsibly in an incredibly challenging environment so we can keep doing what we love—serving Canadians. We were able to get through this difficult spring and emerge as the leading major carrier in Canada and as one of the best in North America.

Transparency is important for our people and our business. I'm happy to share with the committee that this summer we completed 98.9% of flights, with 64.7% of those arriving within 15 minutes of scheduled arrival time, all thanks to the performance of our incredible people.

Earlier this month, WestJet took steps to address the issues we face by signing a memorandum of understanding with the Government of Alberta. It includes investments in labour market training programs, pilot training, addressing the punitive costs of aviation jet fuel and building our visitor economy. This agreement reflects the fact that while aviation is federally regulated, it is critical to the provincial and municipal governments that are so reliant on our investments.

In June we announced our new strategic plan, which will see us grow in a stronger and sustainable way, working with communities and stakeholders across the country as we transition our investments in central and eastern Canada into more east-west flying and sun flying. In the west we have consolidated our 787 Dreamliners in Calgary and will expand all market segments.

These investments are critical at a time when we’re seeing demand for travel surging back. We need planes to deliver for Canada, and our purchase of 42 737-10 aircraft will not only help us recover but is also great news for our aerospace sector and the companies and workers who build, repair and maintain these aircraft.

Finally, our partnership with Sunwing will be of interest to committee members, and it is entering the next phase of government approvals. Our two complementary businesses will serve Canadians well.

As we emerge from this crisis, we believe that Canada must have greater shared accountability in the traveller journey, and what our sector needs most especially from government is stability and transparency as part of that shared accountability, including clear criteria and metrics for any future restrictions.

Finally, I also want to acknowledge and thank our pilots and say how great it is to be here with my friend Captain Tim Perry, who is representing ALPA and our valued pilot group at WestJet.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you for your opening remarks, Mr. Gibbons.

Before we proceed, I want to remind all members in the room that photos are not permitted when committee is in session.

We will begin the opening line of questioning with Dr. Lewis. Dr. Lewis, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Thank you so much.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for your testimony today. I can see that your industries and the employees and the staff have gone through a great deal of change. Some of it seems to have been very painful.

I will begin my questions with Mr. Gibbons. Thank you for your testimony today.

Around June 1 of this year, the CEO for WestJet made a public statement about the Liberal government's decision to extend the vaccine mandate. He stated, “As vaccines are not preventing the spreading of the virus since Omicron, there is no more logic to maintain it. This will also relax some of the operational challenges at the airports.”

Can you please describe the nature of the operational challenges he alluded to?

[Andrew Gibbons]

Thank you very much for your question.

With respect to the operational issues in his tweet, what we were referring to at that time was that we were facing a series of crises across the aviation system. People were waiting for their bags. People were waiting in CATSA lineups. People couldn't get through the customs hall. There were all kinds of issues, and those are all well noted and documented, and we'll have lots of time to debate those.

Also true at the time—and I believe the president of CATSA said this publicly—was that there were hundreds of CATSA workers who were unvaccinated and not yet able to come back to work. Our chief executive and our company were simply saying at that time that it was pretty clear to us that the situation with COVID had evolved and that it was time to bring these workers back, particularly because of the moment we were in and the fact that they were needed and their expertise was needed. That's why he felt compelled to make that statement.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

The shortage of those individuals who were not able to work because of the mandates also created some of the operational challenges that were alluded to.

[Andrew Gibbons]

There were many factors involved in that. I think that question is best placed with the central agencies who employ them, but it was our observation that it wouldn't hurt to have these individuals back at work.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Are these individuals back at work now?

[Andrew Gibbons]

That's a question for CATSA and the other federal agencies who are under the mandate.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Your company also had strong criticism for the government earlier in the year. Around February the government stated that there was stagnation in the approach and that it continued to make travel inaccessible and punitive for Canadians and inbound tourists. Can you elaborate on that statement?

[Andrew Gibbons]

I didn't come here to relitigate COVID, but very briefly, I think our observation throughout the pandemic at different junctures was about the extent to which aviation was singled out in the way it was regulated.

Some of this was because the federal government regulated borders and travel only with respect to COVID. What we witnessed was a regulatory environment and a series of public health measures around aviation that were completely disconnected from every other consumer-facing activity. At that time and at other times, we were just making a very simple point that when it came to putting health warnings on our product, more justification was required; more debate was required and more transparency was required. We are a safety business and we co-operated with public health authorities across the country, and the Prime Minister even applauded our leadership in helping curb the spread of the pandemic, but that was our observation at that time and at many different times.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Did you raise these concerns with government officials?

[Andrew Gibbons]

Yes. We have an excellent relationship with the government. That's the thing about airlines and the federal government—we are extraordinary partners. We delivered programs on behalf of the Canadian people throughout COVID. However, we also had arguments and disagreements about the COVID policy, and that was probably the way it should have been.

We did raise them multiple times.