Transport Committee on Oct. 31st, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting No. 36 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, February 3, 2022, the committee is meeting to study anticipated labour shortages in the Canadian transportation sector.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House Order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Appearing before us today from the Air Transport Association of Canada, we have John McKenna, president and chief executive officer. From the Canadian Council for Aviation and Aerospace, we have Robert Donald, executive director. From the National Airlines Council of Canada, we have Jeff Morrison, president and chief executive officer. From Nav Canada, we have Ben Girard, vice-president and chief of operations, and Jonathan Bagg, director, stakeholder and industry relations. From Pascan Aviation, we have Julian Roberts, president and chief executive officer, and Yani Gagnon, executive vice-president and co-owner. From Unifor, we have Kaylie Tiessen, national representative, research department.

We will now begin opening remarks with the Air Transport Association of Canada.

The floor is yours for five minutes.

[John McKenna, President and Chief Executive Officer, Air Transport Association of Canada]

Good afternoon.

The Air Transport Association of Canada has represented this country's commercial air transport industry since 1934. Our 175 members are engaged in all levels of commercial aviation and flight training, in every region of Canada. Our membership ranges from the very large domestic transborder and international carriers to regional carriers, along with flight training organizations and the Canadian air transport support industry.

The labour shortage in the commercial aviation sector is at a critical stage. Although the industry has been dealing as best it can with personnel shortages for many years through enhanced recruitment, training and retention strategies, and by importing experienced aviation personnel through immigration, the ever-growing shortage has been greatly exacerbated by the impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic, particularly in the restart phase of operations.

The current state of affairs, if left without appropriate and quick Government of Canada action, will not only prevent the air transportation system from recovering but will be sure to deteriorate at a fast pace. This will have a devastating impact on the overall Canadian economic outlook, as all industries in our export-focused country rely upon available and efficient transportation of people and goods.

Northern and remote regions which rely on aviation as an essential service will be particularly vulnerable to unstable aviation transportation due to lack of resources.

Commercial pilots, cabin crew, air traffic controllers and aircraft maintenance and related personnel are all at critical levels. That is expected to continue for the foreseeable future. Shortages in maintenance personnel are not just related to licensed aircraft maintenance engineers and design engineering staff, but also to the so-called unskilled trades, such as baggage handlers, cargo loaders, fuellers and de-icing crews.

Our industry is subjected to delays never before encountered in processing service requests at many federal government departments. What used to require up to 90 days now requires easily two to three times that long, leaving millions of dollars of equipment idle. Our industry is also being harshly impacted through poor levels of service by the lack of experienced engineers and inspectors within our regulator, Transport Canada's civil aviation directorate.

In order to see the air transportation system successfully recover following the pandemic and in the new labour realities, we need serious assistance from the Government of Canada, and we need it now, not sometime in the distant future.

This assistance can be provided in various forms. To be successful, innovative solutions based on regulatory streamlining and efficient alternative methods utilizing the latest technology for training are key. Canada must quickly catch up to other major regulatory systems such as the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration, the FAA, the UK Civil Aviation Authority, the CAA, and Europe's European Union Aviation Safety Agency, the EASA, in these matters.

One benefit of the pandemic has been the allowances by TCCA, for which we are very grateful, to use exemptions of alternative equivalent processes for training and licensing. ATAC urgently encourages TCCA to embed these and other proven alternatives, which are widely accepted by other major regulators, into the Canadian aviation regulations. This would enable Canada to properly support our industry in a time of dire need, and would do so efficiently for both the regulator and the industry. This would lead to a truly safe and efficient air transportation system, which Canada is so reliant upon and could be proud of.

Finally, Canada has been asking the Canadian government to co-operate in the establishment of a federally guaranteed loan program to support the training of the next generation of commercial pilots. Access to funding has been identified as one of the major barriers to entry for youth who are considering aviation as a career. Near full employment of professional pilots would result in a near zero exposure for the government within a guaranteed loan program so desperately needed to help train the next generation of pilots, especially in these times of high interest rates.

ATAC and its members stand ready to continue to co-operate with TCCA on the development and implementation of these required improvements, as quickly as possible.

I will gladly answer your questions once my colleagues have made their statements.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. McKenna.

Next we have the Canadian Council for Aviation and Aerospace.

You have five minutes for your opening remarks.

[Robert Donald, Executive Director, Canadian Council for Aviation and Aerospace]

Good afternoon.

The Canadian Council for Aviation and Aerospace, CCAA, is a not-for-profit national partnership organization working with industry, labour, educators and government. CCAA is the only national organization dedicated exclusively to the labour market and the workforce in the aviation and aerospace industry.

Two points I'd like to talk to you about this afternoon are the critical labour shortage, as referred to by John McKenna just a minute ago, and the need to improve the system for access to foreign workers.

On the critical skills shortage, some of you will be familiar with the 2018 CCAA labour market information study. The study documented the critical skills gap in the sector. It is the most widely cited report on the subject. At that time, the study projected 55,000 new workers would be needed by 2025. CCAA has recently completed a new study, which will be published shortly. The new projection is for 58,000 workers by 2028. Of that, air transport requires approximately 31,800, which is 58% of the current workforce. Support activities for air transport require 13,200, which is 50% of the current workforce. Aerospace manufacturing requires 13,100, which is 25% of the current workforce. Of the 31,000 needed, 7,574 are pilots and 5,203 are aircraft mechanics.

Air transport will see high replacement demand and insufficient supply of new entrants. Of replacement demand, retirees make up 38% of the total hiring requirements. The balance is growth. There are projected to be 5,000 and change new entrants to the industry, which will make up less than 20% of the 31,000 needed, so 26,800 workers will need to be found from other industries or other jurisdictions. ICAO, Boeing and IATA all document that the shortages are worldwide, so recruiting from other jurisdictions will continue to be challenging, as it will be from other sectors.

The other point I want to talk to you about is streamlining the process for hiring foreign aviation maintenance engineers, AMEs. All Canadian companies prefer to hire within Canada for obvious reasons; however, as mentioned, Canada cannot produce enough workers, so companies are often forced to hire foreign workers. The process is time-consuming and costly. Adding two NOC codes to the list of critical labour shortages would be an important step towards making the process less costly and faster for a critical part of the industry. Those NOC codes are 7315 for aircraft mechanics and inspectors and NOC code 7244 for avionics and electronic technicians. All companies need a mixture of experienced workers and apprentices. Hiring 20 experienced foreign workers allows a company to hire 20 additional apprentices.

The other important related point is on recognition of foreign trained AMEs by Transport Canada. According to a recent report by CAMAQ out of Quebec, Transport Canada refuses 99% of requests from AMEs licensed in other jurisdictions like EASA or FAA. While their experience is recognized, elements of their academic education are considered deficient, because foreign regulators have different requirements for academic training. You have a licensed AME who's worked for a major airline, say in Germany, for 20 years, authorized by Transport Canada to work on Canadian planes in that jurisdiction. However, when they come to Canada, they are not recognized by Transport Canada to be an AME here because 20 years ago when they studied in Frankfurt, they didn't have exactly the same curriculum as that required by Transport Canada for colleges in Canada. Moving to a competency-based system instead of this methodical bureaucratic approach would be important.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll be happy to answer questions after the others have spoken.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Donald.

Next we have the National Airlines Council of Canada.

You have five minutes for your opening remarks.

[Jeff Morrison, President and Chief Executive Officer, National Airlines Council of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon. Thank you to the committee for the opportunity to appear before you today.

My name is Jeff Morrison. I'm the president and CEO of the National Airlines Council of Canada, or NACC. NACC represents Canada's largest passenger air carriers, including Air Canada, Air Transat, Jazz Aviation LP and WestJet. The mandate of our association is to promote safe, sustainable and competitive air travel by advocating for the development of policies, regulations and legislation to foster a world-class transportation system.

This study that the committee is doing on anticipated labour shortages couldn't come at a more opportune moment. Canada's airlines and their workers have felt the challenges of the COVID-19 pandemic acutely. This sector was among the first to be hit and the last to recover. A large number of workers left the workforce during the COVID-19 pandemic, either voluntarily being furloughed or offered early retirement.

If there's one thing I would stress that you take away from my remarks today, it is that there is no question that Canada's airlines are powered by the skills and talent of the people who work in this sector. Our success depends on them. Despite the many challenges that airlines and airlines staff have had to face during the COVID-19 pandemic period, I am pleased to state that our member airlines have been successful in returning their staffing capacity to 2019 levels. But we need to think about the future. The aviation ecosystem is reliant on the availability of a large, well-trained, competent workforce, and it must include professionals in adequate numbers to cater to the diverse roles found across the aviation sector and ecosystem. As legislators, you know that labour shortages aren't just buzzwords you read about on social media or hear about in the news. They impact the opportunity for sustainability and growth.

As you just heard from Robert, my colleague from the Canadian Council for Aviation and Aerospace, their labour market information study forecasts a need to hire more than 58,000 workers by 2028 to meet industry attrition and growth. Just as a bit of perspective, that total is roughly 43% of the current aviation workforce.

The air transport sector, in collaboration with aviation stakeholders and the Government of Canada, must succeed for Canadians and the aviation industry as we look to the future.

The sector relies on the Government of Canada to process the credentials of airline workers and other aviation personnel. This includes medical certificates, security clearances, restricted area identity cards and other identifying information.

As travel demand has increased, so have the demands for accreditation, and we must ensure that Transport Canada maintains adequate resources. Eliminating the backlog and ensuring that accreditation keeps pace with travellers' needs are immediate steps the Government of Canada can take.

For newcomers to Canada who want to work in aviation, we often see barriers to expediting the recognition of foreign credentials, as my colleague Robert also mentioned, and this is another area that we are bringing to the attention of the government.

We also believe the Government of Canada can do more to promote airlines as a positive career choice, similar to the effort it has made to encourage students or new Canadians to pursue careers in the skilled trades. In fact, by coincidence, earlier today the U.K.'s Department for Transport unveiled a new program called Generation Aviation, which aims to boost recruitment into the U.K. aviation sector. The Canadian government could look at this new program as a model.

Lastly, there is a need to use technology to further digitize services and requirements that will help enhance the travel experience, whether that be in airport operations, for instance, or customs screening. As another example, biometrics could play a role in addressing labour shortages.

It's critical that the Canadian airline industry remain globally competitive now and for decades to come, and that travellers have confidence that their journey is predictable, timely and enjoyable, with clear service standards across the air travel ecosystem. This means ensuring that the airline sector continues to attract and retain skilled workers now and into the future.

Mr. Chair, I too look forward to the discussion.

Thank you again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Morrison.

The next speaker is Mr. Ben Girard from Nav Canada.

You have the floor for five minutes, Mr. Girard.

[Ben Girard, Vice President and Chief of Operations, Nav Canada]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Nav Canada is the not-for-profit corporation that owns and operates the world's first privatized air navigation system, ensuring the safest, most efficient movement of aircraft from the Pacific to the Arctic to the mid-Atlantic, 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

Having enough people to deliver safe and efficient air navigation services is a top priority for the company. This includes recruiting, training and staffing across a large number of roles such as air traffic controllers, flight service specialists, technologists, aeronautical information specialists, pilots, engineers and a range of supporting corporate employees.

Nav Canada employs a total of 4,400 employees, each with an important role to play.

Throughout the pandemic, Nav Canada has maintained the highest level of safety and a high level of service reliability and is still doing so today. Our direct contribution to system delays and bottlenecks represents a very small percentage of delays experienced within the aviation ecosystem.

Nonetheless, we take any Nav Canada related delays extremely seriously. We have been able to mitigate these to a large extent through the commitment and efforts of all of our employees and the strong collaborative relationships that we enjoy with our unions, customers and industry partners.

Unfortunately, we have seen an increase in unplanned absences across the business, including those related to COVID, unpaid leave due to the vaccine mandate, unexpected retirements as people make lifestyle decisions and additional leave entitlements applicable to federally regulated employers.

In the few instances when a staffing shortage may have impacted service delivery, Nav Canada did everything possible to minimize our impact on the industry. These steps included working with our staff to backfill the absences with overtime, optimizing staff scheduling and extending staff hours.

To support our operation, we have issued contracts to more than 50 retired employees, redeployed staff from other units, hired controllers from foreign jurisdictions and taken a number of other actions to ensure we have people in the right places.

Like other stakeholders in this industry, Nav Canada has faced and continues to face challenges made worse by the pandemic as well as the current employment market. As others have told you, there are significant challenges in recruiting people in the aviation industry.

Nav Canada's staffing plan is aligned with the future projected traffic over several years. Staffing plans take into account anticipated attrition and are mindful of our capacity to successfully train new employees. Supported by increased collaboration and information sharing with major airlines, we are monitoring traffic forecasts and the impact on staffing on an ongoing basis.

We are planning for the future, both in the short term and in the long term. Our frontline air traffic services training programs are currently running at full capacity. More than 250 individuals are currently in various phases of training, which can take between 24 to 36 months to complete. An additional 500 trainees will enter training programs for operational roles over the next two years. We are also adding 250 employees in non-operational roles this year.

The training for operational positions is delivered by training professionals and unionized operational employees. On this basis, the unions contribute to success rates for certification in air traffic service. Modernizing training programs are a key strategic priority for Nav Canada. We are improving training efficiency to support increased employees in operational positions over the long term.

In addition to a focus on staffing, Nav Canada is moving forward with strategic investments to introduce technology that increases safety, enables increased capacity and reduces the environmental impact of aviation.

Labour shortages are a complex issue, and there is no one simple solution to this issue. We are committed to working with our employees, unions, customers, stakeholders and the government to continue to provide a world-leading service while investing to meet future needs of aircraft operators and the flying public.

We have been and will continue to work collaboratively to address staffing issues and to continue to make Nav Canada an attractive place to build a career.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Girard.

I will now turn the floor over to Mr. Roberts of Pascan Aviation.

Mr. Roberts, you have five minutes.

[Julian Roberts, President and Chief Executive Officer, Pascan Aviation Inc.]

Thank you so much.

My name is Julian Roberts. I'm with Pascan Aviation.

We're a regional airline operating on 703, 704 and 705 air operator certificates. We serve 11 regions in Quebec, Newfoundland and Labrador, and Ontario, moving 7,000 passengers per month on approximately 40 flights per day. We currently employ 200 aviation professionals.

We've been invited here today to discuss the labour shortage in the aviation sector. We're a regional carrier based in Montreal, and our employees are constantly solicited by mainline companies such as Air Canada, Jazz, WestJet, Sunwing and Air Transat. This is not new for us, as these companies require experienced personnel and usually come to companies like ours for that experience.

In the past years, we have experienced a 50% turnover in flight crews alone. Until recently, we usually had a nice stockpile of resumés of ambitious young women and men wanting to join our company. Since the pandemic, we've noticed a steady decrease in qualified professionals in our sector. We have problems recruiting specialized workers, such as flight dispatchers, aircraft maintenance engineers and ground service personnel, but our biggest challenge remains the pilot shortage.

There are numerous reports that exist—I’m sure you have all seen them—on current and future shortfalls of pilots in Canada. The data is not good, especially for smaller, regional carriers like ours. The pilot shortage is no surprise, nor is it a new issue. In 2019, we were already feeling the impact, but the pandemic alleviated the problem for us, temporarily anyway.

Today, we are in a perpetual recruiting mode for all levels of personnel, especially for qualified pilots. Unfortunately, we see very few applying. We have increased our salaries and conditions significantly. We don’t see better retention or attraction of these qualified workers because there just aren’t many out there.

When the new flight and duty regulations came into effect in 2020 for the 705 operators, the larger companies started to stockpile pilots, putting on additional strain. As for Pascan, we ended up requiring 30% more pilots in our 705 operations to do exactly what we were doing the previous year.

On December 12, the flight and duty regulations will come into effect for the 703 and 704 operators, once again impacting the number of pilots required. Unfortunately, we had to make the decision to cease our 703 operations earlier this year. In early 2023, we will also suspend our 704 operations, greatly impacting the regions we serve, as the required number of pilots will be too high and our operations will no longer be viable.

The effects on regional airlines will eventually make their way to the mainline carriers as well. New pilots coming on to the market will have fewer options to build hours and experience in the smaller 703 and 704 operations. Understand that I'm focusing a lot on the pilot shortage today, but without the pilots to fly my planes, I won't require anyone to dispatch them or any mechanics to fix them.

Where has everybody gone? As I stated earlier, this shortage isn't new; it has just been amplified. A lot of it is due to the pandemic. A lot of early retirement packages were given out to the pilots at Air Canada, WestJet and Air Transat, and some people just decided to start different careers due to the instability in the industry. The pandemic greatly impacted the training of new pilots for almost two years. The cost to become a pilot is astronomical, and as interest rates increase, this will only be a further deterrent.

There isn't much awareness out there either for young people that this is an incredible industry to work in. Regulation changes have also made a great impact on the pilot levels.

As we're already in the middle of this shortage, there isn't much that can be done in the short term to solve this issue. Unfortunately, it will quickly get worse as bigger airlines ramp up and pilots start to leave for other countries, like the U.S.A. under the EB-2 program, offering unconditional green cards for pilots and their families, huge salaries, and sign-on bonuses.

For us, regional aviation is at risk. We need help, and we need help quickly.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much.

Next we have Unifor.

You have five minutes for your opening remarks.

[Kaylie Tiessen, National Representative, Research Department, Unifor]

Thank you.

Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Kaylie Tiessen. I work in the research department at Unifor studying the air transportation sector as well as many other sectors. This is one of my favourites.

Unifor represents more than 16,000 members working in the air transportation sector. We represent pilots, customer service representatives, ramp attendants, baggage handlers, flight attendants, airport authority workers, flight service specialists and air traffic controllers. All of these workplaces have experienced the effects of a shortage of workers in the last year.

These labour shortage conversations are nothing new. We've heard a couple of times today already that this is not something that's recent. These conversations have been ongoing. One thing we're all talking about in Unifor across the sector is higher-quality work. That's one of the many solutions needed. What's become clear to our members as we listen to these conversations is that government doesn't truly understand the root of this problem and our employers don't necessarily understand the root of the problem, or some of them just refuse to make the changes necessary to fix some of these issues.

In higher-wage jobs like air traffic control and with pilots, some of our employers have really manufactured a shortage of labour by failing to hire and train an appropriate number of workers after people have retired or by even preparing ahead of time. In lower-wage jobs, employers have manufactured a shortage by paying low wages and creating very chaotic work rules that leave workers with little ability to plan their lives outside of work or to make ends meet. They go and work somewhere that is maybe more stable.

In customer service roles, employers are able to hire people, and they're filling the roles, but turnover is really high because of inadequate training, low wages or precarious schedules. The job that could be very fulfilling, and used to be very fulfilling, turns out to be less fulfilling as workers are subject to violence and harassment by customers and are provided with little support from their employers. It shouldn't be a surprise that if an employer treats their workers unfairly, they will be hard pressed to retain employees or to hire them at all.

I have a couple of examples. Our pilot members at Sunwing could soon be working side by side with people hired on temporary contracts who are paid more than they are for the same work. Sunwing has applied to hire workers through the temporary foreign worker program, but we believe the company has not done enough to hire pilots who are available to work in Canada.

We've heard reports from our members at Sunwing that they had upwards of 800 applicants for a recent job posting for pilots, but they hired only about 150, or less than a quarter of those qualified applicants. Sunwing has manufactured its own labour shortage by not hiring and training pilots in advance of the busy travel season, and is now taking advantage of the current labour market situation in order to undermine our members' collective agreement and the quality of work available in Canada. Permanent jobs could be offered to pilots from abroad who would become a part of the Canadian workforce, benefiting from the collective agreement and the general protections offered most workers in Canada.

Another example is contract flipping. Contract flipping is a common practice in the sector that treats workers unfairly and leads to a shortage of people who are interested in doing that kind of work. Airport authorities, airlines such as WestJet and Air Canada, and virtually all international carriers that fly into Canada create incredibly precarious work by contracting out particular tasks, including baggage handling, wheelchair handling and customer service. Every few years those contracts are flipped and new suppliers take over. That's kind of common practice. The work is exactly the same, but the winning company does not have to hire the workers back or provide the benefits or other provisions they may have earned over time. The collective agreement does not follow the job either.

Unifor members faced this demeaning and really heart-wrenching situation at least three times this year when their employer lost a contract. They had to fight to be hired by the new company for less total compensation, fewer benefits and actually a loss of any work rules that they had been able to negotiate.

Furthermore, as I mentioned, our members are increasingly facing harassment from customers. They have insufficient training to conduct their jobs to the best of their ability. Employers are really abdicating this responsibility and then blaming workers for their lack of capacity.

Some of these issues need to be solved by employers, but government has an important role to play in increasing standards and supporting safety and security in the industry too.

Some concrete steps that government could take immediately to improve the labour situation at airports include instituting a minimum living wage at airports across the country; implementing full successor rights to ensure workers keep their jobs, pay and collective agreements when a contract is flipped; enhancing oversight of the temporary foreign worker program to ensure employers don't abuse the system and workers are treated fairly; granting migrant workers permanent residency status upon arrival to ensure equal rights and protections for all so that's not being taken advantage of; and helping to lead the development of a solution to the escalating problem of on-the-job harassment. Employers need to take responsibility for the frustration that their business models and technological change introduce into the system and take a stand to ensure that customers know harassment won't be tolerated.

Those are just a few of the solutions that are available that you can make right now.

I look forward to taking your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Ms. Tiessen.

We'll begin our round of questioning today with Mr. Lewis.

Mr. Lewis, you have six minutes.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses. It's been really awesome testimony.

I'll start out by saying that all of us around this table or virtually have known the story about the airlines over the last two and a half years. Most of those stories—although they're trying hard—aren't the most fun stories to say the least, so this is really, really an important study.

Mr. Chair through you, sir, I'll start with Mr. Morrison.

We heard you say that more people need to be trained. What specifically is needed by the government and what could the government have done differently? Also, what does the future look like to get us out of this mess, quite frankly?

[Jeff Morrison]

Mr. Chair, first of all, I think the future is definitely looking better in the next few months and years than it has in the past several months and years.

You heard extensively about the impacts of COVID on our sector. As I mentioned in my opening statement, we were the first to be hit and the last to recover.

The fact that our staffing levels at our member airlines are back to what they were in 2019 I think is a positive development. Obviously, the fact that COVID restrictions have been removed as of October 1 is a positive development. The fact that we're seeing passenger volumes return to somewhat close to 2019 levels again is a positive development.

However, there are lessons that will need to be learned from the pandemic, no question. In particular, especially with the numbers that my colleague, Mr. Donald's group, put forth, the fact that we need to hire at least 58,000 new workers into the sector over the next six years is going to mean—and frankly, I think the testimony of Mr. Roberts in terms of some of the challenges his company is facing is very—

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Morrison. I'm sorry, but I have very limited time.

I have one more question for you, sir.

Through you, Mr. Chair, you spoke about using new technologies to speed up things. That is what I heard you say.

With all due respect, sir, I've heard from CATSA and from CBSA unions that computers cannot replace people and that indeed it doesn't really speed things up.

I'm curious. Are you hearing a different story than I am? All of the testimony we've heard, through more than this committee, says that it's not going to work. We know that ArriveCAN, quite frankly, really held people up, as opposed to getting them through quickly.

Can you comment on that?

[Jeff Morrison]

Very quickly, if we look at the history of technology over the past several years, we have seen improvements across the travel ecosystem via technology. It wasn't that long ago that you had to call up a person to book a flight. Now you can do that online. It wasn't that long ago that you had to go in person to see a customs agent when you were coming back to Canada. You can now do much of that online and via technology.

We do see that it plays a role. Can it solve every problem in terms of minimizing disruptions? No, it can't, but can it play some role? Yes, it can.

Again, we'd be happy to have more discussion on that with this committee.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, sir. I appreciate that.

Mr. McKenna, you spoke about how many more people we need. Let me ask you this, sir.

Do we have the proper resources to meet the demand today? Do we have the schooling systems, all the infrastructure we need to actually train these folks? I know it's not a click of the fingers overnight, but do we have the infrastructure there?

[John McKenna]

The training infrastructure is there; there's no doubt that it's there. Access to it is difficult, because of funding, for one thing, and also because our regulations date back to the 1990s. They're not modern, not up to date. They're not following the world trends as far as incorporating new teaching technologies and so on.

The infrastructure is there but the regulation is not, and the funding is desperately lacking.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you.

Through you, Mr. Chair to Mr. Donald, very quickly, on temporary foreign workers, I have a very simple quick question. Is it standard across the globe?

If we were to bring in TFWs, temporary foreign workers, to help subsidize our workforce here in the aviation industry, is it standardized in that everybody would be safe on an airplane? Are the folks that are repairing our airplanes and doing all those types of jobs safe?

Mr. Donald?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I think it might be best to ask a question of another witness, Mr. Lewis.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Sorry, Mr. Chair. I hope this isn't coming off my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

We'll make sure it doesn't, Mr. Lewis.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Very well, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

Can you tell me, Mr. Chair, how much time is left, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have one minute and 15 seconds.