Evidence of meeting #37 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Task Force Co-Chair, National Supply Chain Task Force
You're right, Louise. Many stakeholders did talk about automation.
One area in which it's well developed right now is in automatic warehouses. People are having a hard time getting lift-truck drivers, so they're investing a lot of money in those warehouses.
Again, I doubt we're going to see 43-footers going on the highway without any drivers these days. That's why we need drivers.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much.
Ms. Yako and Mr. Gattuso, before we move on to the next member of the committee, would it be possible for you to mute your microphones after you're done speaking? It's just for our interpreters, to make sure there's no overlap.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Ms. Yako and Mr. Gattuso.
I would like to congratulate you on the work you have done. It is important to make sure the supply chain is efficient. A lot of people in our ridings are talking to us about this, and we are all feeling the consequences. I wanted to point out that you have done an important piece of work. I hope your recommendations will make it possible to achieve better results.
With that said, you referred in your opening remarks to the subject of workforce training and the fact that education falls under the jurisdiction of the provinces and territories. You also talked about the question of professional organizations, which also fall under the jurisdiction of the provinces. At other times, you raised the issue of immigration. In Quebec, economic immigration is under provincial jurisdiction.
How did you manage to reconcile each of their prerogatives in framing your recommendations and the vision you have presented to us?
Task Force Co-Chair, National Supply Chain Task Force
First, we met with industry actors in several provinces. We did not meet with each of the provinces, since only some of them had made submissions. However, we talked about a national problem, which will mean we are able to look outside for workers.
If we want to stay in business, it takes people and it takes programs to support them. We are well aware that some powers are federal and others are provincial. We did not try to put ourselves between two jurisdictions. We identified the problem, and we stated that training had to be offered and we had to invest together to do that. The entire country will win as a result. I think that has to be your starting point.
As I said, work as a truck driver is not recognized as a skilled trade, so there are no subsidies for this type of work. The training required by transportation companies has to be paid for by the drivers themselves. That is so important. We do $774 billion in trade with the Americans and the roads are important. It takes drivers and they have to be trained.
We determined that in order to achieve this, collaborative work had to be encouraged. In fact, our report is entitled “Action. Collaboration. Transformation.” What collaboration means is working hand in hand for the future of the country.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you, Mr. Gattuso.
Essentially, your task force heard from people who described their challenges, and then you made recommendations based on the testimony heard and your findings, and on your judgment.
I just wanted to clarify that ultimately, you carried out your mandate by describing potential solutions to the current problems, without necessarily checking which jurisdiction was involved. You are a federal task force. I am not criticizing, I'm making an observation, in telling you that the federal government may not be able to implement some of your recommendations. That doesn't mean they are not useful or worth considering, of course. I just wanted to point this out.
At page 18 of the report, you actually refer to the need to collaborate with the provinces and territories on the subject of retaining truck drivers. The drivers we have heard at the committee said that the aging of truck drivers was the key element in their view.
In the Bloc Québécois, we think that of all the proposals heard, one of the avenues worth considering would be to provide tax credits or other measures to encourage older workers to stay in the labour market, so it would be more attractive for them to remain instead of leaving.
I would like to know how you see that kind of recommendation, or at least that kind of program.
Task Force Co-Chair, National Supply Chain Task Force
Actually that aligns with one of the recommendations in the report. We identified bringing retired workers back to work even on a part-time basis as an opportunity, and I believe we identified financial incentives or eliminating barriers or disincentives for older workers to remain in the workforce, so we're in complete alignment.
Task Force Co-Chair, National Supply Chain Task Force
Our report says clearly that for experienced drivers to want to remain in the labour market, they would need to be given a tax incentive. There is a labour shortage at present, and these experienced workers would be useful until enough drivers have been trained.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you, very much, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.
Next we have Mr. Bachrach.
Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I appreciate the presentations. I also wanted to thank Ms. Yako for the briefing she gave me on the report the task force put together. Unfortunately, we had some very poor northern B.C. cell service at the time, so it was a bit fragmented on my end, but I appreciated the overview.
I wanted to ask a few questions based on the report. There were a few areas I found particularly interesting. One is around labour dispute delays. I note in the list of stakeholders consulted that a number of labour organizations were part of the conversation. The report states:
The Minister of Labour should urgently convene a council of experts to develop a new collaborative labour relations paradigm that would reduce the likelihood of strikes, threat of strikes, or lockouts that risk the operation or fluidity of the national transportation supply chain.
We would all want that and I think if it was possible, we should have done it a lot of years ago.
What's envisioned here? This description is fairly vague. I'm wondering what sorts of ideas you heard, especially from the labour folks you consulted as part of this work.
Task Force Co-Chair, National Supply Chain Task Force
By the way, it's nice to see you again, Mr. Bachrach.
One of the things we heard very consistently from many of the stakeholders was a need for certainty, and certainty in some cases actually trumped efficiency. Certainty they equated with reliability, and reliability is now almost more important than competitiveness or cost. One of the main reasons for the lack of reliability that was identified was related to the fact that there are significant disruptions that can take place as a consequence of lockouts or the risk of strikes.
What we tried to do with that recommendation was essentially to say that if as a country we want to continue to be known as a reliable trading partner, we have to do everything we can to try to control man-made or controllable disruptions. One of those is obviously through the elimination of labour disruptions. We didn't have a particular solution in mind because none of us is an expert in labour relations.
What we wanted to bring to the forefront was the fact that this is an issue that needs to be addressed urgently, and the experts on this are the Minister of Labour, union leaders and employers, and they're the ones who are going to have to figure out how to do that, because of how important having a reliable supply chain is to the future of our country.
Task Force Co-Chair, National Supply Chain Task Force
If I can add to that, just to give you an example, a boat can take 10 days to cross the ocean to come to Canada. Legislation will permit 72 hours to announce there's either a strike or a lockout. How can we be considered a reliable supplier when a boat is coming through the ocean and he's like four days near Canada and it's being announced that a couple of days later there will be a strike. Our principle was to be a reliable and fluid partner. We need to redefine ourselves to be recognized as that.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
I would offer that I think the way we build that reputation as a reliable, efficient and certain partner is by having good labour relations, and I think a lot of that responsibility rests with the government and with the companies in the supply chain.
Perhaps I'll move on to first nation consultation. I noted that the task force found that first nation consultation was outside the scope of its work given the short timeline, yet in the report there are recommendations that pertain very directly to first nations. I also would offer, because labour shortages are one of the big concerns expressed in this report, that indigenous communities in the region I represent have some of the highest unemployment rates of any communities. It seems like a tremendous opportunity to create employment opportunities in indigenous communities and indigenous nations, yet that's not reflected in the recommendations.
Could you talk about the decision that was made not to consult even indigenous leadership organizations in Canada as part of the scope of this project?
Task Force Co-Chair, National Supply Chain Task Force
Well, we did consult with the AFN. If you look at our mandate, it asked us to speak with industry stakeholders specifically, but we did extend consultations to the AFN. The AFN were very clear that our discussions with them could not be considered consultations. That's why, in one of our recommendations, we talk about the need for engagement with aboriginal peoples within various indigenous groups, and that should take place as part of the development of the national labour force strategy, as well as the national transportation supply chain strategy.
We knew that within 100 days we would be unable to do sufficient consultation and engagement. We recognized as well that aboriginal groups and northern and remote communities were very important parts of the transportation supply chain and that we needed as a country to be able to ensure—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Ms. Yako. Unfortunately, Mr. Bachrach's time is up.
Next we will go to Mr. Strahl for five minutes, please.
November 2nd, 2022 / 5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC
Thank you very much.
I want to make sure I've captured something you've just said, Ms. Yako. You said that reliability is more important than competitiveness. What was the other thing you said there?
Task Force Co-Chair, National Supply Chain Task Force
I said that reliability is almost trumping efficiency and competitiveness, but they're all important.
Conservative
Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC
Sure, and we've heard that in our study from the airline sector in particular, about the instability and reliability having an outsized impact on their operations, so it certainly follows with what we've heard.
I guess I should start as well by congratulating you on the comprehensive nature of your report. I've noted that Transport Canada has no shortage of excellent reports. The question becomes, does the government action flow from that? I hope we will hear from you as time goes on. I know you don't have a mandate, particularly, to follow it through, but I hope we will hear from you on what you're seeing both from the private sector and from government.
I wanted to talk a bit about rail. I wanted to focus in on rail. The CTA holds railroads accountable for providing adequate service. I've talked to shippers and have heard that the standard is difficult to enforce because it's so poorly defined.
Did you have any recommendations? Did you find that this was a problem in trying to determine how...? I know you talked very extensively about the relationship between shippers and the railways, but how do you think we can better define what providing adequate service is, so that there can be the reliability, predictability and stability that are needed for a smooth supply chain?
Task Force Co-Chair, National Supply Chain Task Force
Mr. Strahl, one thing in our recommendations is that we are putting more power into the CTA. We also list some criteria that need to be followed by the CTA in order to engage the railways. For sure, with that in their hands, we're beefing up their authority, so that should be quite helpful for the supply chain fluidity.
Conservative
Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC
In terms of the CTA, I note that a key recommendation was to give them more power to be an arbiter of disputes, to cut the minister out of that and to make sure there was that accountability.
What did you hear, again, from both the railways and shippers and customers of the railway in terms...? I've certainly heard there are concerns about there being repercussions when remedies are sought from the CTA or from Transport Canada when service standards are not met, and that there could be implications down the line in terms of contracting and that sort of thing.
Did you hear that feedback from customers of the railway, that they were concerned that if they used the dispute resolution mechanisms at their disposal, they would actually be penalized in future contracts?
Conservative
Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC
Do you have a recommendation for how to prevent that from being an ongoing concern?
