Transport Committee on Nov. 16th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 39 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, February 3, 2022, the committee is meeting to study the impact of commercial shipping on shoreline erosion.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House Order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Members of the committee, appearing before us today we have, from the Essex Region Conservation Authority, Mr. James Bryant, director of watershed management services.

We also have with us Mr. André Villeneuve, mayor of the municipalité de Lanoraie.

From the St. Lawrence River Institute of Environmental Sciences, we have Mr. Jeff Ridal, executive director.

Finally, appearing here in person, we have Mr. Colin Rennie, professor at the University of Ottawa.

Before we begin, I would like to take this opportunity to inform members that all of today's video conference witness participants have completed the necessary audiovisual checks. I'm just going to take a quick moment to look at each of our individual translators to get a thumbs-up to make sure everything is good to go.

Perfect.

We will now begin the opening remarks with Mr. Bryant. Unfortunately, Mr. Jacques Grenier couldn't be here.

Mr. Bryant, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[James Bryant, Director of Watershed Management Services, Essex Region Conservation Authority]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, members of the committee and, specifically, MP Chris Lewis of the Essex riding, for allowing me to speak with you on the subject of erosion in our area, both from a shipping perspective and from a natural process perspective.

As an agency responsible for the protection of life and property on behalf of local municipalities and the Province of Ontario, our team is constantly faced with the challenges of both flooding and erosion, as our area is bounded by Lake St. Clair, the Detroit River and the western basin of Lake Erie.

Specific to the topic of shipping and the impacts on shoreline erosion, the impacts differ as a result of the location of the shipping passageway. With the canal being situated in more of a central location within the western basin of Lake Erie, wake-driven erosion is of little consequence to the mainland because of the distance between the vessels and the shoreline itself. Impacts would be more pronounced in the Detroit River, which is much narrower, with the proximity of the canal much closer to the shoreline and the islands in the area. However, even in this situation, the wakes caused by the large shipping vessels are generally less of a concern than those caused by the smaller pleasure craft that operate much closer to the shoreline and are higher in number.

Notwithstanding that, the impacts that occur from larger shipping vessels are rare, but they have consequences, such as impacts to personal property, specifically docks and breakwalls. In these rare occurrences, the impacts are a bit more dramatic, typically because of the state of the infrastructure at the time of the occurrence. Oftentimes, it's because the infrastructure is in a state of disrepair. Therefore, the energy required to initiate full failure is much less than for structures that are properly maintained.

Regardless of this, the effects of any such vessel pale in comparison to the impacts caused by natural processes such as wind-driven waves, which have been causing significant impacts on the safety of local communities and public infrastructure like roads, sewers and water mains. Strong winds across large open bodies of water affect the wave climate and cause erosion along the islands and mainland shoreline. In some cases, the damage caused is irreparable. Chatham-Kent experienced erosive forces so severe that they caused road closures and permanent road relocations, which affected emergency first response capabilities and the lives of those living in the nearby communities.

Further west, the Hillman Marsh barrier beach in Leamington is now gone, due to high lake levels and strong winds, leaving the interior diking system in this area exposed to potential wave impacts it's not designed for. These dikes protect large inland farming operations and properties from being inundated by Lake Erie. Without them, prime agricultural land would be lost, leaving a large area a permanent piece of Lake Erie.

Further west into the Essex region, I have personally coordinated with engineering and public works departments to quickly install shoreline protection to protect various segments of both upper-tier and lower-tier municipal roadways in such areas as Leamington, Kingsville and Amherstburg. These were all reactive measures to combat, again, the forces of nature.

There's a need to evaluate these effects further to understand any mitigating approaches. We have learned that standardized approaches, such as breakwall structures, may only temporarily slow down erosion, but the continued lake-bed erosion and downcutting in the areas lakeward from these structures are deepening and increasing the likelihood of failure.

In essence, the very structures required to protect homeowners from the loss of their land are inadvertently exacerbating the issue, leaving homeowners at risk of the substantial costs of ongoing costly maintenance and repairs.

In some areas, landward migration of the lake can be as high as four feet per year on average. As we deal with many unknowns about our climate and the associated variabilities, such as record high lake levels and reduced ice cover on the western basin of Lake Erie, the winter season has become a significant factor in annual erosion rates. With reduced ice cover and prolonged elevated lake levels from 2015 to the present time, some areas have experienced erosion rates double those from historic studies, which can date as far back as 1976 in our area and are limited by the available information and technology of the time.

We're challenged with understanding and predicting these impacts. To do so, there's a need for sufficient studies and funding to come up with a plan for mitigating measures. The federal government took a great step forward with the recent budget, having allocated nearly $64 million toward flood-related studies, much of which has been funnelled through the current flood hazard identification and mapping program.

As evidenced through these examples, our region is facing flood risks that can be a direct result of shoreline erosion. Therefore, flooding and erosion are not, in our case, mutually exclusive. I would urge consideration of funds toward these issues, coupled with the well-intentioned flood hazard identification and mapping program that is specific to flood-related undertakings. These combined effects need to be better understood to ensure that communities are safe from these threats.

With that, I'd like to thank the committee for allowing me to speak. I'd be happy to answer any questions the committee members might have to the best of my ability.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bryant, for your opening remarks.

Mr. Villeneuve, you have the floor for five minutes.

[André Villeneuve, Mayor, Municipalité de Lanoraie]

Mr. Chair, members of Parliament, distinguished guests, committee staff, good afternoon.

My name is André Villeneuve, and I have had the privilege and honour of serving as mayor of the magnificent municipality of Lanoraie since November 7, 2021. As my allotted speaking time is short, I will get straight to the point.

During the last municipal election campaign, an important issue was raised, namely the erosion of the riverbanks, and for good reason: for years, people have been signing petitions and questioning the federal government on this subject, but nothing is done. They feel like they are fighting their own government, when they should be able to count on it instead.

As soon as I took office, I sent a letter to the owners of the 368 properties along the river to gauge the extent of the problem. The response from the riverside residents was not long in coming. Nearly 100 properties are currently affected, to varying degrees, by erosion. You have photos of one of these properties. I will be distributing the originals of these photos later on, and if there are any questions, I will be happy to answer them. They say a picture is worth 1,000 words, and you have three.

In this letter I sent to the owners, I wrote: “As the municipality is, by definition, a local government, it is only natural to offer you support in your possible steps if this proves necessary.” Well, yes, it is necessary. Whatever level of government we are in as elected representatives, our duty is to listen to our fellow citizens and ensure that justice is done. When we see properties, land and homes threatened with disappearance, people at risk of losing their life's work and their safety compromised, yes, it is necessary.

That is why I am here today before you, to bring their voices inside these walls and to appeal to you not only on behalf of the citizens of Lanoraie, but on behalf of all citizens who are being hit hard as the victims of this phenomenon.

In my opinion, the only way for you, members of the committee, to resolve this situation is to answer a fundamental question: does the federal government have a responsibility for this phenomenon of shoreline erosion or not? To ask the question is to answer it. Yes, the federal government has a responsibility. It is high time it admitted it and shouldered its responsibility.

In this regard, the scientific literature is unequivocal: the erosion of the banks of the freshwater portion of the St. Lawrence is a natural phenomenon accentuated by human action, according to the St. Lawrence Action Plan. According to the same source, the wake produced by ships is often considered to be the cause of shoreline erosion. In addition, the main factors causing shoreline erosion are variations in water levels caused by water control structures, such as dams, dikes and canals. Another erosion factor is the effect of waves produced by passing ships, again according to the St. Lawrence Action Plan.

Why all these interventions? In reality, they are aimed at allowing the circulation of larger and larger ships, with increasingly heavy loads, and more numerous. These are countless interventions in the river that have been authorized by the federal government for over 100 years.

During the 19th century, between Montreal and Quebec City, the St. Lawrence River was adapted to the ever-increasing needs of commercial navigation, according to Technical Report RT‑141. Today, this continues, from dredging to dredging, from dam to dam, through the installation of the reversoirs on the Sorel islands and the booms at Lanoraie and elsewhere, not to mention the opening of the St. Lawrence Seaway year-round. The list of human interventions is still very long.

Ladies and gentlemen members of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, the case is made, in my opinion: the responsibility lies with the federal government. Now we must act to allow the citizens affected by this man-made scourge to continue to live safely along the majestic St. Lawrence River. First of all, we must ensure that the federal government finally takes on its responsibilities, that is by re-establishing a support program against shoreline erosion, a program that will take into account all stages, from diagnosis to the execution of the work, including authorizations, design and, of course, funding.

These measures are necessary. Citizens cannot do it alone. The federal government has a duty to act. Citizens expect no less from their government and its leaders.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your attention. I am available to answer your questions, if any.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve.

Next we have, from the St. Lawrence River Institute of Environmental Sciences, Mr. Jeff Ridal.

Mr. Ridal, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Dr. Jeff Ridal, Executive Director, St. Lawrence River Institute of Environmental Sciences]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As mentioned, I am Jeff Ridal, the executive director of the St. Lawrence River Institute of Environmental Sciences, or the River Institute. We're based in Cornwall, Ontario.

Thank you for providing me the opportunity to address the standing committee on the topic of the impact of commercial shipping on shoreline erosion in the river.

I would like to begin by respectfully acknowledging that the River Institute is located on the traditional territory of the Haudenosaunee. We offer our gratitude to the Mohawks of Akwesasne for their care for, and teachings about, our earth and our relations.

The River Institute is a non-governmental organization incorporated in 1994 to address environmental concerns on the St. Lawrence River, with a special emphasis on the upper section of the river from Kingston at the outflow of Lake Ontario to Lake St. Francis, a lake-like section of the river located between the Moses-Saunders dam at Cornwall, to just below Montreal.

In 2022 the River Institute and its partners embarked on a two-year DFO-funded study to investigate the ecological impacts of waves and shoreline erosion on nearshore habitats in the upper St. Lawrence River, or the “international section”, and I think you'll also hear it being referred to that way.

This project arose from efforts by volunteers and representatives of the Great River Network, an environmental hub made up of more than 50 river-focused organizations that raised concerns about noticeable shoreline erosion and the possible degradation of downstream aquatic habitat in the areas where large waves are generated by ships transiting the seaway.

A 2010 St. Lawrence action plan report estimated that approximately 25% of the 1,600 kilometres of shoreline from Cornwall to just below Quebec City is affected by shoreline erosion. The section immediately upstream of Cornwall, to Brockville, Ontario, has similar clay-based soils and is subject to seasonal water fluctuations of up to two metres and is therefore also prone to shoreline erosion.

To address these concerns, the Great River Network, in consultation with the St. Lawrence Seaway Management Corporation, proposed voluntary speed reduction zones for commercial vessels to protect areas along the international section of the river, those sections with heightened vulnerability for erosion due to soil conditions and other environmental factors. These zones are about three- to eight-kilometre stretches of the river located near Cornwall, Morrisburg and Brockville.

To reinforce and underpin the speed reduction zone measures, wave engineering data and ecological assessments are needed to characterize the causes and impacts of shoreline erosion in those sections of the river, and to form a basis for future shoreline stabilization work. The Great River Network and the River Institute partnered with researchers from the University of Ottawa, South Nation Conservation and the Raisin Region Conservation Authority to develop a research study that addresses this topic. I should say that the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne supported the project and is assisting in its implementation.

The project aims to determine the impacts of large ship waves on shoreline erosion and potential loss of aquatic habitat, focusing on sites in the western Lake St. Francis region of the St. Lawrence River along the Mohawk territory of Akwesasne and also on the upstream sites near Morrisburg, Ontario. These sites are impacted by shoreline erosion and are located within the voluntary speed reduction zones developed by the St. Lawrence Seaway Management Corporation.

The University of Ottawa team is monitoring waves impacting the study sites from wind, ship and pleasure boats, as well as other environmental factors, to differentiate the forces contributing to bank erosion. Dr. Rennie, who is also presenting to the committee today, will provide details on the technical aspects of this work.

Our River Institute team is applying its ecological expertise and extensive database on St. Lawrence River nearshore fish communities to assess whether shoreline erosion is having detrimental impacts on downstream fish communities, species abundance, diversity and habitat quality. Aerial drone technology is being used to provide high-resolution maps of habitat features such as macrophyte beds that are important for fish habitat, as well as for anchoring sediments.

This project constitutes a unique collaboration partnership including academia, environmental NGOs, native communities, conservation authorities, industry and community volunteers to generate innovative science in a format that responds to a relatable and pressing problem.

It is our expectation that the project's results will be relevant and scalable to other areas of the river that are impacted by shoreline erosion and will provide tangible results for the St. Lawrence Seaway Management Corporation.

It will also support the development of a St. Lawrence River shoreline management plan proposed by the local conservation authorities to stabilize the impacted shorelines and restore aquatic habitat using native plants and vegetation.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Ridal.

Finally for today, we have Professor Colin Rennie. Professor Rennie, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Dr. Colin Rennie, Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As you said, my name is Colin Rennie. I'm a professor at the University of Ottawa in the Department of Civil Engineering, with particular expertise in river engineering.

Thank you for this opportunity to make a presentation to the committee.

At the outset, I wish to pay respect to the Algonquin people, who have a long-standing relationship with this territory, which remains unceded. Furthermore, I also wish to state my appreciation for the collaboration of the Mohawks of Akwesasne in the work I will be presenting.

I will begin by presenting an overview of the influence of ship wake on shoreline erosion and then I will briefly discuss details of the ongoing research project we have undertaken.

Ship wake has been demonstrated in several previous studies to contribute to shoreline erosion. Ship waves can suspend nearshore and bank sediments. If these sediments are then transported offshore or downstream by currents or waves, it can lead to bank recession.

The likelihood of a ship wake contributing to bank erosion depends on the power of the waves, the water surface elevation with respect to the bank and bank characteristics that dictate the bank stability, such as bank angle, sediment grain size, consolidation, pore pressure and vegetation.

The waves produced by a large ship in a narrow waterway such as a river depend on many factors, including the size and draft of the ship, the speed of the ship, the river width and depth, the channel's form and how near the ship passes to the shoreline. In general, bigger, faster ships in narrower, shallower channels make bigger waves.

In addition to a train of smaller short-period waves, large ships in narrow rivers produce a succession of long-period waves—very long waves—beginning with a deep drawdown followed by a subsequent surge back up. The drawdown occurs because the ship draws water toward itself due to the buildup of water on the bow of the ship, as well as because flow accelerates on the side of the ship. The drawdown and surge can be the dominant source of erosive wave energy produced by ships.

Also, though, river currents, wind waves, ice scour, water level fluctuations and tidal flows can cause erosion. The importance of these sources at a particular site depends on many factors, such as climate and river discharge, as well as the size, morphology, slope, orientation and proximity to the ocean of that river channel. Each of these sources is a complicated process, and the sources can occur simultaneously; thus, it is difficult to tease apart the mechanisms.

Also, shoreline recession is often relatively slow and incremental compared with, let's say, an individual wave action. That's an added complication to identifying the source. Nonetheless, ship-induced waves can be the dominant source of shoreline erosion at some locations in sufficiently narrow lowland rivers with low currents, limited wind waves and high ship traffic.

For example, Gaskin et al., in 2003, suggested the drawdown and surge wave heights of 0.5 to 1 metre generated by passing ships in the St. Lawrence Seaway downstream of Montreal at the Îles de Verchères can play a dominant role in clay bank shoreline erosion. Similarly, in a more recent study, there are locations on the Meuse River in the Netherlands where bank erosion due to ship waves at low flows has exceeded bank erosion due to river currents at high flows.

As introduced by Dr. Ridal, this year we have initiated a study to understand the relative importance of ship-induced waves on shoreline erosion in the upper St. Lawrence. As a first step, data have been collected at two shoreline locations: at Mariatown near Morrisburg, upstream of Cornwall, and at Jacobs Island in Akwesasne territory near Summerstown, downstream of Cornwall.

At the Mariatown location, satellite image analysis between 1995 and 2020 suggests shoreline recession rates of about 0.3 metres per year. Each location has three sampling sites with different exposures to help differentiate ship wake from wind waves. At each sampling site, synchronous time series of nearshore water level fluctuations as well as turbidity are being collected. Further, the river flow field has been surveyed at each location to map water velocities and depths.

Data collection will continue next year, and then numerical models will be developed to assess the relative influences of ship wake, wind waves and river currents on shoreline erosion.

The water level and turbidity data collected this year are currently being analyzed. Initial results suggest that the ship-induced primary wave heights associated with drawdown and subsequent surge have a range of about 20 to 30 centimetres, and that these events do resuspend nearshore sediments. However, at this stage of research, it is premature to draw conclusions regarding the relative influence of ship wake on shoreline erosion.

Thank you. I'll take questions as you wish.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Professor Rennie.

Thank you to all our witnesses for their opening remarks.

We will begin our round of questioning today with Mr. Lewis.

Mr. Lewis, the floor is yours. You have five minutes...or six minutes, rather. Excuse me.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for the extra minute as well. I appreciate that.

To all the witnesses, thanks very much for your testimony this afternoon/evening. It really hits home for a riding like Essex. I like to call ourselves an island, so to speak. I know we're not, but we're awfully close to one when we have Lake St. Clair, a relatively small body of water compared with the Great Lakes, and the Detroit River, which is very narrow and not very deep, and then Lake Erie, a much larger lake and of course one of the Great Lakes.

In the shipping channels of Lake Erie, the ships are quite a distance from shore. I know this because I like to go out there and fish for walleye near the shipping channels. However, we also have the Detroit River. Along that same river line, so many needed goods are brought in and taken away, right down to Oreo cookies, which are manufactured in the United States from our grain from southwestern Ontario.

All of that is to say to the committee that our shipping industry is absolutely vital. Whatever we can do to ensure that the shipping industry is helped out along the way to continue to move commerce will be darn important. This study is a very important study.

I want to say thank you to Mr. Bryant and through him to Mr. Byrne, CAO of the Essex Region Conservation Authority, or ERCA. He has worked with the authority for as long as I can remember and has done some amazing work on so many various functions of ERCA.

Mr. Bryant, you spoke about flood mapping program funding. I believe it to be true that the last time an erosion study was done in the region of Essex, which of course is much larger than Essex—it includes Windsor West, Windsor-Tecumseh, and Chatham, and probably all the way up to Sarnia—was 1975. It was commissioned in 1975 and completed in 1976. Ironically, that was the year I was born. I'm really dating myself now.

Is it fair to say, Mr. Bryant, that this was the last time the erosion portion of the study was completed?

[James Bryant]

Through you, Mr. Chair, to respond to the member's question, yes, in terms of a full comprehensive study for erosion along the shorelines, it was comprehensive to evaluate the natural effects going on out there in the Great Lakes system and comprehensive being around Lake St. Clair, the Detroit River and through Lake Erie.

Yes, it was commissioned around 1975, with data collected then and published with annualized erosion rates in 1976, with some smaller evaluations that were coupled with one-off studies in more localized areas. We've had particular challenges in re-evaluating those areas due to some funding and timing constraints, which I think I spoke to earlier.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Bryant.

It was interesting to see those pictures that were sent around earlier about the erosion. I think about the other side of Point Pelee, which is certainly not in my riding but is not very far, where they're literally moving roads, because the roads are being washed into Lake Erie due to erosion.

Mr. Bryant, under this funding program of $67 million or $76 million, I think you said, is there a portion of that specifically with regard to erosion mapping, or is erosion out of that funding?

[James Bryant]

Currently there are no eligible expenses to the flood hazard identification and mapping program being administered through NRCan and funnelled through the local provinces. No portion of that is eligible towards erosion hazards.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Bryant.

I realize that the IJC, the International Joint Commission, basically just studies the water levels. Is there any funding? Is there any conversation between the countries with regard to opportunities to get funding to do something that's...? Quite frankly, this is not just Canada's problem; it's the United States' problem as well.

Are you aware of any funding of that? How helpful would that be for the planning for ERCA, the Essex Region Conservation Authority, going forward?

[James Bryant]

I don't have any awareness of available funding out there to specifically address that. I guess—in part to my earlier remarks—we're hoping to see something become available because we have a combined effect that we're dealing with here in terms of the flood hazards. As I mentioned before, the program that was initiated is very important. It was a great step forward, but there's a dual impact in some of the large flooding impacts because of the flat topography and the nature of the flood control structures that could be exposed to some of that wave action and energy. There's an erosive force that can drive and initiate that catastrophic flooding consequence.

We'd be open to seeing any other sources of funding that would be out there that we could hopefully couple with some of the other flood-related programs out there.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have left, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Actually, your timing is perfect, Mr. Lewis. You have no time left. Thank you very much.

Next we will go to Mr. Badawey.

Mr. Badawey, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I guess I'll start off with some questions and then make some comments later on. Hopefully I will have some time from my colleagues to allow me to pass on some further comments.

First off, I want to thank you folks for being here today, because this is an important issue. This issue is near and dear to my heart with the Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence and everything that's attached to it. I mean not only the benefits but also the challenges that we experience with shoreline erosion and many other things, some of which we experience, some of us, on a daily basis.

I want to start off with looking at the St. Lawrence River. I'm going to start with Jeff Ridal with respect to his comments and with regard to the 2017 and 2019 flooding of Lake Ontario.

Do you have any idea what the cost was—either financial or environmental—of those extreme weather events to the shorelines of the St. Lawrence at those times?

[Dr. Jeff Ridal]

I think that the IJC has done some work to look at that. I don't have that number in front of me. I know that a very extensive study was done by the Great Lakes-St. Lawrence River adaptive management committee of the IJC to look at those flooding events and shorelines. There are also surveys that were done on both sides of Lake Ontario and the St. Lawrence River to find out from shoreline owners the level to which they experienced erosional problems. Obviously, those high water events did result in significant erosion, particularly in certain areas, but I don't have the exact numbers in front of me in terms of the costs.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Ridal.

If you could forward those to me if you can get your hands on them, that would be great—

[Dr. Jeff Ridal]

Sure.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

—because it could give us a good idea of what the returns on our investments will be if, in fact, we made that comparison.

With respect to the work that Quebec's doing right now, I've heard that the Government of Quebec is using some of the federal disaster relief funding from the 2019 flood to turn once hard shorelines into soft shorelines that can better adapt to changing water levels and reduce erosion.

Have you seen any examples of shorelines' being successfully rebuilt after flooding or erosion? That's my first question. My second question is this: Would soft shorelines designed to reduce flood damage address the issues caused by, for example, boat erosion and other methods of erosion, and how?

[Dr. Jeff Ridal]

I understand, Mr. Chair, that this question was addressed to me, and I can give it a start. There might others who can speak to it as well.

My experience is mostly in this section below Montreal, so that's where I would have seen some examples of some shoreline work that's been done through conservation authorities and some other programs, particularly with emphasis on those soft techniques.

We've had discussions, particularly with our partners, the Mohawks of Akwesasne, who have had some issues and have had some engineering done on shoreline restoration, using those soft techniques. This is more or less recounting back what was passed on to me.

There was a moderate success rate. The issue with the shoreline work that they've seen is that the overgrowth and the soft structures haven't, in several cases, lasted the length of time that they had anticipated. While it did mitigate and slow down the erosion, the long-term effect was still a continuance of erosion.

In particular, this work was done on—

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

The interpreter is having trouble because too many mikes are unmuted. It's causing interference.

Are you able to check on that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

All right.

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.

I'll look into it.

It looks like the issue has been resolved.

Mr. Ridal, if you could just start speaking again to make sure that there are no issues, I'll look at the translators to make sure and get the thumbs-up from them that we're good to go.

I'll turn it over to you, Mr. Ridal.