Transport Committee on Nov. 16th, 2022

[Dr. Jeff Ridal]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I might ask the member to repeat the second part of his question for me, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I just want to look over at our interpreters to make sure that they're good.

They are. That's wonderful.

Mr. Badawey, I'm not going to let that interrupt your time, so you have two minutes and 15 seconds left. I'll ask you to ask the question to Mr. Ridal again, and we'll allow Mr. Ridal to respond.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Essentially, we were speaking about rebuilding. What I'm trying to do is get to the how and the what. We understand the what, so how can we resolve this? I was talking about the shorelines and some of the work that they're doing in the Quebec region with respect to soft shorelines versus hard shorelines. Mr. Ridal was explaining some of his experiences with that work.

[Dr. Jeff Ridal]

My expertise is not in shoreline erosion and shoreline restoration; that's usually the purview of conservation authorities. I have, through anecdotal evidence, seen some positive examples of the soft shoreline techniques, but I've also heard that they, in some cases, have not lasted the length of time that was expected.

I might defer to our colleague at the conservation authority who's present with us and might have some very hands-on experience with that.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Ridal.

I am going to go to Mr. Bryant now of the Essex Region Conservation Authority, and he can finish off that answer.

I also want to touch on the neighbouring community of Chatham-Kent that was in the news for having buildings once 50 metres from the shoreline that ended up in Lake Erie after storms eroded more land in a few weeks than have been eroded in the past 100 years and having septic tanks, for example, popping out of the ground as the water table rose after severe weather events.

Extending from the question that I just asked Mr. Ridal, I have a few other questions. I'm trying, again, to get that contrast of cost in terms of the returns on investment the government and all of us can recognize with respect to those investments.

What is the cost to your municipal government from erosion caused by severe water events, erosion caused by high water levels and erosion caused by shipping and/or boating?

[James Bryant]

I'll say that the question is a challenging one to unpack wholly, because when we start to consider the full financial impacts of something like that occurring, we're looking at the immediate financial impact to the municipal landowners themselves. It is very costly to undertake repairs on something like that.

There are costly road repairs. You're looking at overtime for cleanup crews repairing these roadways during a flood event and finance departments maintaining all the records and that sort of stuff. I don't have any experience personally on providing the cost of that, but some of the other flooding events out there have been pretty substantial. I think there's documented evidence on how costly they are, whether in Ontario or across the country.

If I may speak to the soft shoreline techniques in our area, generally, through our personal experience in our area, they're not heavily promoted because they just can't withstand the wave energy that's out there from the natural forces, so when we take that into consideration, we have to ensure that a new development that would be going in would be protected for a minimum number of years. Some of the soft shore techniques that are out there may not meet that minimum standard that has to be met—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bryant.

Unfortunately, time is up for that round.

Over to you, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval. You have six minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to start with the mayor of Lanoraie, Mr. Villeneuve.

Mr. Villeneuve, I know Yves Perron, the member for Berthier—Maskinongé. He presented a petition in the House of Commons on shoreline erosion. Among the things he was calling for were a speed limit for vessels and the reinstatement of the federal shoreline protection program.

I'm familiar with these efforts because I went through something similar a few years prior with the constituents on my side of the river.

What response did you get?

As I understand it, one of the things you were told was that a voluntary speed limit was already in place.

Do you think that's enough?

Do you have more to say on the subject?

[André Villeneuve]

Given what we've observed, as you saw in the photo I showed you earlier, it's obvious that everything done so far is not cutting it in terms of fixing the problem.

According to the scientific literature, a low water level means little erosion, and a high water level means more erosion. It goes without saying.

It only makes sense since we know that the five reservoirs on the islands of Sorel were set up by the federal government. The scientific literature tells us that the reservoirs cause the water level to be higher. The only thing the experts don't agree on is how much those reservoirs caused the water level of the river to rise.

The short answer to your question is that I'm not an expert, but one thing is for sure. In light of what we're seeing when it comes to the eroding shoreline, something needs to be done now.

I don't think the current voluntary measures, as you mentioned, are producing the desired results. We can't say everything is fine now. It's not.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you for your answer.

That brings me to my next question.

You're here in your capacity as the mayor of Lanoraie. Earlier this week, we heard from the mayor of Contrecœur. Many municipalities are affected by this.

Are you in contact with neighbouring municipalities? Do you know whether other municipalities are experiencing the same thing?

You said that hundreds of your residents had properties along the river.

What's happening in the municipalities next to yours?

Is it a widespread phenomenon, or is the problem limited to a specific area?

[André Villeneuve]

It's not limited. It's a widespread phenomenon.

A group of municipalities are joining forces: Lanoraie, Berthierville, La Visitation‑de‑l'Île‑Dupas, Saint‑Ignace‑de‑Loyola and Saint‑Bathélemy. The municipality of Sainte‑Geneviève‑de‑Berthier is also expected to join our group.

Residents are mobilizing as they prepare to call on you, their members of Parliament, to do something.

I was a member of the National Assembly of Quebec for 10 years, and one thing I know is that big things can be accomplished when the political will is there. Just this past Monday night, people were meeting on this very issue. To some extent, it is their message I am delivering here, in Parliament, today.

You have the ability to make things happen, and you need to use it soon because things aren't getting better. They're getting worse.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you for your answer.

You mentioned towns on the north shore of the river. I assume that's because you live on the north shore, but let's not forget about the places on the south shore, where I'm from. They include Varennes, Verchères, Contrecœur, Sorel, Sainte‑Anne‑de‑Sorel and Sainte‑Victoire‑de‑Sorel.

That brings me to a question on a different topic.

Some of my fellow members are wondering how much of the responsibility for the political will you mentioned falls on the federal government or members of Parliament. I'm talking about the political will to introduce shoreline protection programs or fund projects. The committee heard from witnesses who said that repairing the damage done to a property could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

How much responsibility does the federal government bear in terms of the funding needed to restore private properties?

[André Villeneuve]

In my view, all of it.

As you know, vessels have been using the St. Lawrence River to transport goods since the 1800s and even before. Human manipulation of the river goes back to 1850 or 1860, and includes dredging, as I mentioned. Clearly, that may not be as serious of a problem. The experts will tell you that.

Dams, reservoirs and booms were built and are still there. Because of the many things humans have done to the river, shoreline erosion is much worse today than in the past.

Here's something I've wondered about, and I'll put the question to you. If, as a community, we've benefited from using the river to transport goods, wouldn't it be appropriate—necessary, even—to consider compensating the people who today are experiencing the negative consequences of that use?

If we can't do that, as a society, we aren't worth our salt.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Villeneuve.

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have 45 seconds left, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Okay.

Mr. Villeneuve, do you have an idea of how many people have rallied together on the issue of shoreline erosion in your area.

Do you have an idea of how many properties were affected?

[André Villeneuve]

For all the municipalities together, I don't know.

Where I'm from, as I was saying earlier, there were at least 100 properties. We haven't finished counting yet, but the committee is organizing and we're going to work very hard to put together an inventory of all the properties that might be affected by shoreline erosion.

People are motivated and ready to take action. It's essential for us to find a solution.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

So it's only about 100 properties in your municipality, not including properties in other municipalities.

Is that right?

[André Villeneuve]

Yes, exactly.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

Next we have Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all of our witnesses.

I will continue with some questions for Mr. Villeneuve before moving on to Mr. Ridal.

Mr. Villeneuve, I was very interested in what you said about going around and assessing how many properties have been affected so far by the erosion.

My question is about your municipality's relationship with the federal government on this topic. Have you reached out to the transport minister and advocated that the department take action on shoreline erosion? If so, could you describe those efforts to advocate with other orders of government?

[André Villeneuve]

We haven't yet approached the federal government. The movement is brand new. Well, relatively new. In 2018‑2019, before I was elected mayor, people had got together, circulated petitions, and a movement took shape. When the pandemic hit, things came to a halt.

However, I have taken note of your proposal and we will certainly approach the federal government. It's a very good suggestion. Whatever we do would, I imagine, be added to action taken by all the other municipalities that have been experiencing serious impacts because of shoreline erosion.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Following up on that, we've heard at this committee about how vital the St. Lawrence is to Canada's economy and to the supply chain.

I wonder if the federal government consults municipalities when there are significant increases in shipping traffic related to economic growth or the opening of different shipping routes.

Have you been consulted on that at the municipal level? Have you had any interactions with the federal government on that?

[André Villeneuve]

The municipality has not been consulted a tall, at least not to my knowledge. No, there were no consultation requests.

I was the mayor for nine years and never heard about any consultation requests from the federal government with respect to marine transport on the St. Lawrence River. It's a good idea. I'm in agreement with it. Why not?