Transport Committee on Nov. 16th, 2022

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to come back to something I discussed earlier with Mr. Rennie.

I had asked whether, for example, comparative studies had been done on areas frequented by ships and others that aren't, to see what the impact of shipping is.

I did a field experiment, and I want to make it clear that it wasn't a scientific study. I sent a letter to everyone in my riding living along the St. Lawrence River, from Boucherville to Varennes, Verchères and in the parish of Saint-Laurent-du-Fleuve, located in Contrecoeur. I asked them if they should protect their land from erosion. The answers I received from them showed that erosion was mainly present in areas where shipping was allowed. In cases where there was an island between the residence and where the boats pass, there was sometimes erosion, but the number of cases wasn't comparable. Where there was navigation, the erosion problem was widespread.

Mr. Rennie, when will you have data on this?

Do you have any idea when you'll have scientific data on the situation on the ground?

[Dr. Colin Rennie]

Thank you for the question.

I know you are speaking downstream of Montreal in your case. We're upstream. Again, it is a site-specific phenomenon. It makes sense to look at all the sources. Certainly it has been observed downstream of Montreal that the very large drawdown and surge are significant sources. What you are saying doesn't surprise me, to be honest.

Upstream of Montreal, again, the ship wake is enough to mobilize sediments, so it is reasonable to suppose that it contributes. The question is to what degree.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Mr. Villeneuve mentioned earlier that he wouldn't suggest that anyone sit by the shoreline because it's dangerous.

Some residents are afraid to walk on their property because of the formation of holes. They think that they've already walked where there are now holes and that doing so now could kill them.

Mr. Rennie, since you have an engineer background, I'd like to ask you the following question. Waves often dig into the bottom of cliffs, and we don't necessarily see the damage that's done. However, this damage eventually leads to subsidence of the ground.

What kind of protective structure could be used to fight the waves produced by commercial vessels? Some people wonder whether planting trees, for instance, would be enough.

What kind of protective structure do you think we would need?

[Dr. Colin Rennie]

Thank you for the question.

I know there has been a lot of research in rivers since the nineties and more recently in coastal engineering to try to incorporate natural solutions. The historic method is to basically put in a lot of rock and, in very high-wave environments, to put in interlocking armour stone that will not move. The intent is that it will move as little as possible. There is a recognition that if it moves, it's going to fail.

Second, in some cases, like a vertical wall, it may not have as good a habitat, so there is a movement to try to incorporate more mobile revetments. We have a research project right now on what's called a dynamic revetment of rock that moves to a stable position, but still protects the bank. We'll also possibly incorporate vegetation to stabilize the top of the bank.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Rennie.

Thank you very much, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.

Next we have Mr. Bachrach. The floor is yours. You have two and a half minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to try to get at this question of who should be leading these solutions when it comes to mitigating bank erosion. It seems like Mr. Rennie's work on ship wakes is going to produce some information that can help mitigate that part of the issue. There's still the stabilization of the bank, both against natural erosion and ship-caused erosion.

At a previous meeting, we heard from witnesses who spoke about the historic engineered structures that were put in place in the sixties and seventies. I understand that this work was funded through a federal program. I'm interested to know if any of our witnesses recall whether that was a federally initiated program or whether it was a municipally initiated program that was funded by the federal government.

Speaking a bit to Mr. Badawey's question earlier about what the federal government can do to support municipalities, maybe the question is more about the information municipalities need to provide the federal government so that they can take responsibility for the riverbank.

Mr. Villeneuve, do you have any comments on that? Is this something you want to see the federal government leading? Have they led in the past?

[André Villeneuve]

I couldn't give you a specific answer to your question about who started the program and who came up with the idea for a program before 1997. Certainly, there are people who have taken advantage of it and, in some places, the results are good. So that's a good thing.

As for what the municipality can do, I'd say that we are getting organized. That's what we're doing now, with the resources available to us, of course.

Drones were mentioned earlier. At the very least, we could think about using drones to collect images. You could even use data captured every year using LiDAR technology to make comparisons.

All of this requires people who are familiar with the systems. It takes experts in the field.

We're going to start using this technology, but we have to be careful because we're talking about homes that are on the waterfront. This isn't a municipality-wide problem. We have to see how much money the municipality can invest to support these homeowners in terms of doing the characterization of each property.

We want to get things moving a little bit anyway, but we'll definitely need more support than what we have currently.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Mayor.

Thank you very much, Mr. Bachrach.

Next we have Mr. Lewis. You have five minutes. The floor is yours.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Again, thanks to all the witnesses. I certainly appreciate your testimony this evening.

Mr. Chair, I had mentioned about Essex being somewhat of an island. I don't retract that statement, because we basically are, but there are also a lot of islands that surround us. We have Pelee Island out in the middle of Lake Erie very close to Sandusky, Ohio. We have what we call Boblo Island. It used to be a great amusement park. We have Grosse Ile in the United States. We have Crystal Island, Fighting Island, Belle Isle, Peche Island, Turkey Island and the list goes on and on.

Something that hasn't come up in this testimony yet is Line 5. Because of transport, I think it's important to bring up the impact that more freight would bring to the shoreline. For those who aren't aware of Line 5, of course it brings our natural resources under the Mackinac Bridge to Sarnia. It delivers really important oil to the rest of Canada as well as to the United States.

My question, through you, Mr. Chair, is for Mr. Bryant.

I don't expect you to be an expert on Line 5, of course, but would it not make sense that both the Canadian government and the U.S. government—the governor of Michigan and our premier of Ontario—should come to a resolution on Line 5 sooner than later to stop erosion on our rivers so that it's not barges bringing our oil in but Line 5, which is completely encapsulated in concrete so there can be no leaks? Does that not make sense?

I would imagine that every time a freighter goes up and down the Detroit River or through Lake St. Clair, it's another pound of erosion from our seashore.

Does that make sense, sir?

[James Bryant]

Thank you for the question.

Again, I'm not an expert in the shipping components, but I think it's safe to say that there is certainly an impact when a ship goes through, the extent of which depends on a number of factors. A lot of those factors were discussed by a lot of the different witnesses here today. There could be an impact. There likely is an impact, but various factors affect the extent of it.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Bryant.

Mr. Rennie, I really am intrigued by your study. I'm going to dive into it more because I would really love to understand what your study entails.

Do you work with the likes of ERCA and Mr. Bryant? Do you work with the likes of IJC on your study? If you have or you haven't, could you comment on that please, sir?

[Dr. Colin Rennie]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, in fact, two conservation authorities are part of the study. Their involvement is basically an interest in understanding the wave energy effect on the shoreline so that they can come up with proposed methods of shoreline stabilization.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you.

I'll go back, through you, Mr. Chair, to Mr. Rennie.

Have you worked with the IJC on this? Has it been a critical partner?

[Dr. Colin Rennie]

On this particular study, no, but maybe Dr. Ridal now has a bit more information on his interactions with IJC with respect to the St. Lawrence.

[Dr. Jeff Ridal]

Yes, we partner with the IJC quite a bit through a variety of different projects, particularly on water level regulation and with respect to the ecological impacts on water level fluctuations. There is a tie-in among these water level fluctuations, obviously, with the issue of erosion and potentially the interaction between water levels and commercial ships' waves, among other factors. These interactions are, I think, some of the subtle and interesting results that hopefully we can tease out, so—

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you. I'm sorry, Mr. Ridal—good job.

I have 20 seconds left.

Do you work with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers as well?

[Dr. Jeff Ridal]

Not directly, but we have had conversations with them.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lewis.

Finally, for today, we have Mr. Rogers.

Mr. Rogers, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to say welcome to our guests. It's very interesting, actually, listening to all the testimony about the issues you're facing. I can appreciate the challenge you have of trying to mitigate the shoreline erosion.

Mr. Rennie, you mentioned site-specific areas. I've heard witnesses talk about many kilometres of coastline. Given the entire coastline that we're talking about here, how much coastline are we talking about? How much of it needs to be mitigated to prevent future erosion?

[Dr. Colin Rennie]

I think I would have to do a little bit more research to answer that question. I know my colleagues at Laval have been looking at the river using GIS analysis and geomorphology and have assessed that aspect to some extent.

Dr. Ridal and I have also been talking about this question. I think it's many kilometres, but I won't give a number right now.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

To follow up on that, you just mentioned a couple of things that are being done in terms of studies. I was wondering how many technical studies have been done in a great amount of detail to suggest what might be the best solutions. Are you aware of studies other than what's happening at Laval, for example?

[Dr. Colin Rennie]

Again, thank you.

I know the National Research Council currently has a very big initiative to study nature-based solutions for coastal protection. I don't know if it relates to the fact that this committee was struck. It's possible. I have colleagues, and I'm in fact involved in some projects related to that. It's a very strong research initiative in Canada through the NRC—and, in fact, throughout the world right now—to look at nature-based solutions for shoreline protection.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Given the role that technology plays in our society today in almost every sector, are there technology upgrades being reviewed that might help mitigate the impact of commercial vehicles on the shoreline erosion? Have you talked to anybody with expertise in that field?

[Dr. Colin Rennie]

I think Mayor Villeneuve already mentioned LiDAR surveys. It's now possible to measure shoreline dimensions at very high resolution through very large domains. That wasn't possible when the seaway was built. I think there's a chance for using those technologies to look at bank recession rates. It can actually even be done through green LiDAR to look at the bathymetry as well. I think we can have a better understanding of shoreline erosion, given these new technologies.