Transport Committee on Nov. 16th, 2022

[André Villeneuve]

I'm not an expert, but I know that before 1997, the program in force at the time allowed people to cut a key into the base of the cliff before introducing enormous rocks into the opening. After that they would pile up stones under a particular angle. As you can see in the photographs I showed earlier, it was done with concrete walls at the time. In one of the photographs, the wall dates back to the late 1950s.

Expertise is essential. Every case is different and the solution or approach may also be different. Sound expertise is therefore required in this area if something is to be built to last for the long term, but perhaps not necessarily permanently.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

The Minister of Fisheries said that it's not the responsibility of the government, but I notice that there was a St. Lawrence Seaway program from 1959 until 1997. Do you have any information about why this program stopped and why all of a sudden it is no longer the government's responsibility?

[André Villeneuve]

That a program had been established at the time is a bit of a tacit admission.

As the committee members will see, experts are more or less unanimous that there is currently significant shoreline erosion. The fact that the water level was increased and maintained artificially will definitely lead to erosion. What we need to know is how much shoreline erosion there will be as a result.

I think the program was terminated when budgetary belt-tightening was required. I believe that Mr. Chrétien was the prime minister at the time.

I think people are just putting things off. Eventually, something will have to be done. It's going to be extremely expensive, because damage caused by shoreline erosion is even worse today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Villeneuve.

Thank you very much, Dr. Lewis.

Next we have Mr. Badawey. Mr. Badawey, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll start off by saying this. All the testimony that you folks give goes to those analysts over there, and that is the basis of the report we're going to be entertaining and the response that the minister is going to be considering, so it's very important that you don't hold back on anything you have. If there is any additional information that you folks may have to send in to us, by all means, I encourage you to do that, because, once again, it gets added into the testimony and the response we're expecting from the minister.

With that, I want to concentrate on Mr. Villeneuve, because I was once the mayor of a city on a lake and experienced some of the same challenges that you're experiencing. That's the reason I got involved in the Great Lakes cities initiative. I'm not sure if you're involved in that initiative, but I know some of your neighbours are, especially to the north in Trois-Rivières. I can sympathize with what you're going through, because you're in a narrow part of the river. Being in a narrow part of the river, Mr. Mayor, can pose some challenges, especially with respect to the wakes that are coming off the ships that are travelling in transit in that area.

I guess, as a first comment, that you may want to get involved with the Great Lakes cities initiative. They're tackling some of these issues with us, the federal government.

What are some of those strategies that we're putting in place—not just the federal government, by the way, but the provincial level of government and municipalities, as well on the American side with their federal level of government, their states and their municipalities?

We can look at, for example, a report that I brought forward to our team here on this side of the table with respect to the Great Lakes restoration initiative. That's something that the U.S. is currently doing that we want to embark on. It's an initiative that I'm trying to get off the ground with our cabinet. It also dovetails or aligns with the Great Lakes St. Lawrence action plan 2020-2030 that identifies a lot of recommendations about shoreline erosion and other issues having to do with the Great Lakes.

With that as well, we have embarked on many other initiatives through the doubling of the gas tax. Of course, it's now called the Canada community-building fund, the investing in Canada plan, the green infrastructure fund and others that the Federation of Canadian Municipalities is somewhat the steward of. Municipalities can apply for them to take on some of these strategies that we're working on.

Frankly, the myth that the federal government isn't doing anything is wrong. We are moving the ball down the field. I guess it would be subjective as to how fast that ball is getting down the field, but we are trying. We're working with our partners, as I just mentioned.

I guess my question is this, and I'm going to open it right up to all of you, including you, Mr. Mayor, because you're the one who has the rubber on the pavement. You're the one who's feeling the hit on this from your residents, and I respect that: How can we ensure that municipal governments can direct more funding towards shorelines and erosion projects?

I know that's a loaded question, because you're dealing with so much at this time of the year when you're entering into your budget process on both the operating and capital sides. I get that, but I want to open up that question. What can we do with you in terms of strategy and financing to help you supplement what you may already be doing?

A second question is this: What support and resources may be available, for example, from the provinces, Quebec, and of course other levels of government such as your own level that may be available to you that we can also work with to try to help you?

[André Villeneuve]

It's true that the federal government hasn't been entirely idle. However, the question is whether it can do more. The answer will depend on what is said here in this room. Yes, it can do more, and in my view, it has to do more.

But the solution is not a simple one. The municipality of Lanoraie and all the municipalities along the St. Lawrence River are affected to some degree. Upstream from the Sorel Islands all the way to Montreal—and probably even farther, but I'll restrict myself myself to this section because I know it somewhat better—it's really urgent to act right now.

It would have to begin with a description of each property, the way it's done when road have to be widened. A technical record is prepared on each property, to determine the location of the cottage, the house, the post, the tree and so on. On the basis of the information gathered, an accurate picture of the situation for each property is obtained.

Then, of course, an assessment of the work required to stabilize the soil is needed. Allow me to repeat that I'm not an expert here, but I know that there is a lengthy process to follow and that it needs to start soon.

The federal government had established a program prior to 1997. I would say to federal government MPs that a program like this needs to be introduced quickly. The best approach would be to immediately, together, agree on what measures should be taken.

What I'm telling you then, is simply that something has to be done soon.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Mayor, and I am going to pass on some information to you after the meeting—if I may, Mr. Chair—to get you involved in this process so that we can do exactly what you actually expect us to do and you can get involved with some of the strategies we're moving forward with.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Badawey.

Next we have Mr. Maguire. Mr. Maguire, it's good to see you joining us today. The floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It is a pleasure to hear the witnesses in regard to this issue.

I have some questions for Mr. Bryant and also for Mr. Rennie.

Mr. Rennie, I come from an area of Manitoba that's basically at the confluence of the Assiniboine and Red Rivers in Winnipeg, at The Forks. There hasn't been any navigable freight on the Assiniboine River since the steamships in the early 1900s, but there has been erosion of the riverbanks, and mainly it comes from flooding, from higher and lower levels. There are no real wakes or waves in that regard.

I'm wondering about this. Obviously, the narrowness of a river makes a difference. In the wider area up by Gaspé, and on this sort of thing on the St. Lawrence particularly, it probably isn't as big a problem in regard to the types of erosion we're looking at. Could I just get you to comment on that? You mentioned that you weren't sure, from the studies that have been done, that this was causing the erosion.

[Dr. Colin Rennie]

With our particular study, we just haven't collected or analyzed all the data yet. Only after we've been able to finish the study will I hopefully be able to distinguish the erosion due to regular river currents versus ship wake versus wind waves.

I agree. Rivers erode naturally. I define a river as something that moves water and sediment, so it is part of the natural function of the river to move sediment. The question in this case is whether ship wake is increasing the rate of that erosion.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

It doesn't matter whether it's the St. Lawrence, the Assiniboine or the Red. From my understanding, that volume of water moving through a narrower channel in the river is more susceptible to causing that erosion.

[Dr. Colin Rennie]

That's right. That's why we tend to get more erosion during floods in spring.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Yes, for sure. Thank you.

Mr. Bryant, on your involvement with a conservation authority, I had some work with that in my days as conservation critic back in Manitoba.

My former colleague, Robert Sopuck, was instrumental in setting up a recreational fisheries conservation partnerships program. That program wasn't continued in 2015 when the government changed, but the program was a success in terms of using small funding grants for local projects. A lot of them were highlighted by the fact that the organization could fund part of that project with in-kind donations, so they were very involved in it. Also, because they were local, they knew more about what needed to be done—such as Mr. Villeneuve today, with his local responses and his needs as well.

Do you think the federal government could restart that program to establish something similar for organizations to be able to access funds for these projects to prevent some of the erosion? Would that be a benefit?

[James Bryant]

Thank you for the question.

I can't comment on the past study. I'm not familiar with that from 2015. It does predate my days at the conservation authority.

I would say just in general that our conservation authority, in partnership with the municipalities, always tries in partnership to reach out and grab as much funding as possible, whether it's through in-kind services or cash in hand, to do any types of these studies, whether it's erosion or flooding. If there is something available, we're certainly going to be reaching out, and if we're eligible, that's fantastic.

To that point, I know that locally there have been significant investments in projects related to flooding. Local investment probably totals up to $500,000 in matching funds, specifically related just to flooding. It's tough to get those matching cash values locally, so the more cash that's out there from the federal government or other grants, the better. It helps the municipalities with this issue.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Yes. I think a lot of the smaller organizations don't have the capacity to apply for these large grants, but because of their proximity to the knowledge locally, these watershed management services, recreational fishing organizations, agricultural groups and even municipalities have some of the best ideas and solutions for the soil erosion. If the federal government can ensure funding is available for these smaller erosion projects that local groups can tap into, I'm just wondering if you think that would be a benefit.

[James Bryant]

I apologize; I missed the start of that question. There was a slight audio cut-off.

If the question is whether we could take advantage of accessing funds and grants, then yes, we would love to be able to take advantage of that.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

I'm not suggesting that—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Maguire. Unfortunately, there's no time left.

Thank you very much, Mr. Bryant.

Next we have Mr. Chahal. Mr. Chahal, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for joining us today.

I'll start off with Mayor Villeneuve.

I think my colleague, Mr. Badawey, had gone down the line of questioning that I'll start on, but before I do that, I would like to know something.

You've spoken a bit about the properties that are impacted. Have you done, in your municipality, a full review of the properties and the areas that are impacted and assessments of them, and also public consultations of the areas that are impacted and what the thoughts of your residents are on what they would like done? I'd like to know what public consultations you've done on this issue.

[André Villeneuve]

My first step was to personally send a letter to the owners of the 368 properties. It contained a series of questions designed to better understand what these people were experiencing. My first question was whether they thought there was erosion on their property.

As I said earlier, I was elected last year. The process is in place now. A committee has just been created, and I think it is entitled to autonomy. It's probably going to move in that direction, in other words, do a characterization of each property.

However, how much value does a characterization of a property done by its owner have? The necessary investments will need to be made to get expert advice and ensure that the process is more objective and credible. Let's get this right. That's more or less what I was telling my constituents as recently as Monday night. In short, we have just started the process.

It's important to remember that the program was cut in 1997. I was mayor from 1999 to 2008 and, during those years, people were asking us about shoreline erosion. I must point out that the situation wasn't what it is today. People are now seeing that the danger is at their door, or at their shoreline.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

You haven't at this point explored assessment firms to do further analysis specifically on some of those properties to understand the possible extent of further erosion or damage that could occur or remediation that may be required.

[André Villeneuve]

As I said earlier, a picture is worth a thousand words. You saw the one I showed you earlier. When I saw that, honestly, I was enormously concerned. I could show you others. This isn't the only photo that shows that the situation has deteriorated, even though work has been done naturally. I wouldn't sit in a chair between the house and the shoreline. I don't advise anyone to do that. There's a real danger. I've been concerned about this situation, which I think is very serious.

Now there's work to be done, and it must be done properly. To do that, though, people need support, and that obviously involves experts who will go into the field to characterize all of this. This work will be done but, as I said, there are emergencies that need to be addressed quickly.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you for that.

As you were previously an MNA and a mayor previously and now again, what role does the province have specifically in your jurisdiction in intervening and supporting your municipality? I think that's an important part of the relationship, as is the federal relationship. Where I'm from, the city of Calgary, we had a major flood. We've had extensive work done, but it's been a partnership with three levels of government because of jurisdiction.

What role does the province have and what engagement have you had with the provincial governments?

[André Villeneuve]

It's very clear that all three levels of government need to work together. Earlier, someone said they wanted to talk to me later, after the meeting. We could very well imagine a tripartite partnership or collaboration between the municipalities, the federal government and the Quebec government because there is a question of who is responsible and who should pay for it.

I'd like to come back to the premise from earlier. If, collectively, we've been able to develop our economy in a good way because of the seaway and a percentage of the damage or harm to citizens is due to marine shipping, we must intervene, as a community, to help these people stabilize the shoreline.

That said, I agree that representatives of the three levels of government should sit down together, as long as it's done quickly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chahal.

Thank you very much again, Mr. Mayor.

Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, you now have the floor for two and a half minutes.