Evidence of meeting #39 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was shipping.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Mayor, Municipalité de Lanoraie
That's entirely possible. So let's talk. We need to speak to one another if we're going to get anything done.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
I will turn to Mr. Ridal for a couple of questions.
I was interested in what you said about your research study being supported by the Mohawks. It would be nice to have them here as a witness to share their perspective on this issue.
In your conversations with them, have they conveyed concern about this issue? Could you share with the committee any information on the indigenous context?
Executive Director, St. Lawrence River Institute of Environmental Sciences
That is a really interesting aspect of this question in the context, geographically, of where we live.
As we move through Lake St. Francis between the Moses-Saunders dam and Montreal at Beauharnois, the islands in there are all part of the territory of the Mohawk of Akwesasne. They're quite exposed to the shipping traffic as it moves through that section of the river. There are a number of different islands that are particularly vulnerable. One that I mentioned already is Yellow Island. There's sort of a layer of sand that forms part of the basis of that island and, as you can imagine, it is very prone to erosion. The concerns are quite high with respect to erosion on the properties in the islands along that portion.
In terms of the support that's provided, one of the members of our study group is Mohawk and has provided access through to one of our sites, which is an island. Dr. Rennie can speak to it directly in terms of the work being done there. We're quite interested in that impact.
They are also quite interested in the potential impact where there is active erosion and the downstream transport of sediments may be fouling, for the lack of a better word, the habitat downstream. The native fish population might be then impacted in terms of spawning grounds or habitat. These are all concerns that we've had with our partners at Akwesasne.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
I'll turn to Mr. Rennie to ask a few questions about te research. I have quite a few of them here.
I'm keen to know whether there's any indication that biological factors are exacerbating the problem of shoreline erosion. Is that something that's within the scope of your research? Do you have any comments on that?
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
When you say “biological factors”, do you mean shoreline vegetation?
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Yes. That's one that comes to mind, or animals and wildlife that use the shoreline. Is this a factor?
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
In general, in my opinion, shoreline vegetation does actually inhibit erosion. It's generally good to have shoreline vegetation. Rooted vegetation, in particular, can help hold the soil together.
There have been quite a few studies elsewhere of animals burrowing into the banks—birds, muskrats or whatever. There was one study on crayfish. They showed that can actually change the erodibility of the soil. I'm not studying that here, but it is a factor in some places.
Certainly shoreline vegetation is very important.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Bachrach.
Next we have Mr. Strahl.
Mr. Strahl, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.
November 16th, 2022 / 5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC
Thank you very much.
It's good to hear from you all.
I bring greetings to Mr. Ridal and Mr. Rennie from Eric Duncan, who wishes he could have been here today. He asked if I could ask a couple of questions.
It's clear you have worked together on some of this research. I believe there was some federal funding and that Fisheries and Oceans had contributed some money.
When those grants for research funding were given, was there also an indication at that time that the government would be following up on those recommendations, or is it simply information that they will receive and do with what they will? Did you get a commitment that there would be a government response and an action plan that would come out of the research that you presented to them?
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Perhaps Jeff should take that one.
Executive Director, St. Lawrence River Institute of Environmental Sciences
I was going to get started anyway.
Through you, Mr. Chair, there's no action plan or guarantee that the results of our study will be implemented.
However—and I would say that we were actually kind of surprised initially by this—we were actually contacted by the unit at DFO that is responsible for assessing shoreline habitat. At that time, it was just to express their great interest in our study with respect to some of their decision-making processes with respect to assessing those impacts. It was to recognize that in their view—at least in the way that I recall the conversation—there was a lack of information with respect to the effects of erosion where that is happening and the effects of it downstream.
There's no promise of a program to institute the recommendations, but definitely I think the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is considered to be interested in the results.
Conservative
Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC
Thank you.
Mr. Bryant, I was interested to hear you indicate in your testimony that there are numerous factors that impact erosion in the areas that you are looking out for.
I haven't heard anyone talk about wanting to eliminate shipping in these areas. Obviously, we're the transport committee, so we're looking primarily at the impacts of commercial shipping on erosion. In your opinion, what more can be done? If speed restrictions are already in place, are we talking about further speed reductions? Are we talking about eliminating shipping from some of these areas where speed reduction doesn't have a significant impact?
I'm trying to, from a transport perspective, understand what your recommendation would be regarding shipping in order to have an impact on reducing erosion. Do there need to be further speed reductions or do we need to see investments in shoreline protection that will reduce shoreline erosion by numerous factors, including water levels, wind-driven waves and all of that?
Is it the speed of the vessels, or do we need to look at this more comprehensively in terms of protecting the shoreline from all factors that contribute to erosion?
Director of Watershed Management Services, Essex Region Conservation Authority
Through you, Mr. Chair, to the member's question, my expertise does not lie in shipping. However, as I mentioned, we have different circumstances within our area, depending on where that shipping and that vessel is, whether it's through Lake Erie or through a narrower portion of the Detroit River.
With that, I think it's important and extremely beneficial that we look at all of the factors associated with this, and as a result of that comment, I think it's prudent that we conduct a proper study to understand the full impacts of these types of situations in our specific area—at least at a minimum.
Conservative
Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC
Maybe I would, with my limited time left, ask Mr. Rennie or Mr. Ridal that same question. Obviously we addressed this in your testimony, but as we look to recommendations here, are we looking to protecting the shoreline or are we looking more to eliminating or changing the heights of wakes? Do we need to just address wakes, or do we need to focus our primary attention on general shoreline protection?
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Perhaps I'll start.
As I said, it's a bit premature, because we're only in year one of this particular study, but I think it has to be a combination of both. As I said, the size of the wave depends on the speed and size of the ship, and also the distance from shore, along with all the other factors.
If ships can be regulated or encourage to move at certain speeds and distances that reduce the wave height, that makes sense to me, but I think also shorelines along rivers in general need some kind of stabilization if they're already eroding. Ideally it would be in a way that allows some naturalization so that natural river processes of sediment transport can continue—
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I know it's hard for academics to do it in 30 seconds.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Next we have Mr. Iacono.
Mr. Iacono, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Good evening to all the witnesses.
Thank you for being with us this evening.
My first question is for Professor Rennie.
Mr. Rennie, are you aware of any initiatives, whether in Canada or abroad that have succeeded in reducing shoreline erosion.
If so, can you tell us more about it?
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I'm more familiar with the studies that have tried to assess whether ships are inducing erosion. I have to admit I'm a little less familiar with all the regulatory aspects, so I think I will have to defer on that one, but I will say it's a topic of great interest in Germany, the Netherlands and the United States. There are studies on the Savannah River in Georgia. The national research institute in Germany has set up its own lab to study this issue. Certainly it's a topic of concern all over the world.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Mr. Villeneuve, apart from shoreline erosion, how is climate change affecting levels in Canada's navigable waterways and how might this affect shipping in years to come?
Mayor, Municipalité de Lanoraie
I'd like to be able to answer your question, but unfortunately, I'm not an expert in that area.
One thing is clear, however. The forecasts for water levels in oceans and waterways in general are not promising.
Apart from that, I'll leave it to the experts to answer your question.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Although you don't consider yourself an expert in that field, Mr. Villeneuve, I can say that you're certainly well-informed about it.