Evidence of meeting #39 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was shipping.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
It's a comment, or rather a compliment.
Thank you, Mr. Mayor.
Mr. Rennie, what recommendations should the committee make to the Government of Canada on these issues?
5:30 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
That's a very broad question. I think I've already answered that it makes some sense to me that there be at least some assessment of the speeds ships can travel to have reasonable-sized wakes in particular locations. It's very site-specific. I think speed limits at different locations need to be understood.
I'm not sure I'm the right person to give the answer as to who should be paying for all of this. That's probably for the committee members to answer.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you, Mr. Rennie.
Mr. Ridal, Quebec has a marine strategy that sees increased shipping, cruise ships and ferry service moving more people and goods around the province and the world. Are there any recommendations for the Quebec government's marine strategy to address the impacts of increased boat wakes on the shoreline?
5:30 p.m.
Executive Director, St. Lawrence River Institute of Environmental Sciences
Mr. Chair, if I understand the question, it's in terms of just the general recommendations with this increased traffic.
My response would be along the lines of what has been discussed in terms of understanding that this is a complex problem that requires multiple angles to address. Yes, perhaps partnerships as suggested with municipalities and other tiers of government are needed to work together to identify possible solutions, including shoreline stabilization. My thought is that the federal government can show leadership in this issue.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Mr. Ridal, as we move to reduce the amount of carbon in our transportation network in shipping goods, etc., what recommendations could you make to protect our shoreline from damage while using low-carbon transport such as shipping?
5:30 p.m.
Executive Director, St. Lawrence River Institute of Environmental Sciences
The way I interpret it is that it's still the question of how to best manage the existing seaway, even with the commercial ships that are at hand. There are multiple approaches to the solution, including engaging the shipping industry with respect to the design and the operation of those ships to reduce the waves, as well as having the communication strategy.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you, Mr. Ridal.
Mr. Villeneuve, I have a final question to ask you.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Unfortunately, Mr. Iacono, your speaking time is up.
Thank you, gentlemen.
Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
5:30 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My next questions will be for either Mr. Rennie or Mr. Ridal, by which I mean whichever is in the best position to answer based on their scientific expertise.
My first question is really more of a comment.
Several people, including you, I believe, have emphasized that it can sometimes be difficult to quantify the potential impact of shipping, owing to a variety of factors. For example, there is the nature of the soil, the width and depth of the waterways, the distance between ship and shore, and so on. That's why it's difficult to quantify the impacts of commercial shipping.
On the one hand, I'd like to know current scientific opinion about the status of things.
On the other, have comparative studies been conducted on natural shorelines or shorelines close to navigable commercial waterways compared to other shoreline sections that do not have navigable shipping lanes? That would enable us to have comparable data.
Have such studies been conducted in the past to compare locations where there is a navigable waterway to others where there is not?
This kind of data would show whether there are significant long-term impacts.
5:35 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I'll start and Dr. Ridal can follow.
I can reference one study for the Savannah River in Georgia. There's an island, and the ship channel is on one side of the island. They set up a study to see what the wave height was on the other side of the island as well as on the exposed side. Interestingly, due to this wave drawdown and surge phenomenon, it was actually observed on the other side of the island as well. It was not to the same magnitude. The point is that in a given situation such as downstream Montreal, there's one side exposed, but there could be effects even on the other side of the island from the shipping.
Now, again, I am not ready to say that in my study shipping is the cause of erosion—it's premature for me to say that in this particular study—but I think it has been observed in other places.
5:35 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you.
Have there been studies to quantify or measure the strength of a wave produced by a commercial ship compared to pleasure craft?
I know that there have been studies on waves created by pleasure craft. They found that a wave could be up to 300 metres wide and four metres deep before subsiding.
What about commercial ships?
5:35 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes, you're absolutely right that some pleasure craft—wakeboard boats, actually—create quite large waves. It's because they displace quite a lot of water. It's done on purpose to make a wave for surfing.
The difference is this drawdown and long-period surge wave that large container ships create. Pleasure craft don't have the same displacement to draw water to themselves in the same way.
Yes, pleasure craft can cause erosive waves, absolutely, but they don't have that drawdown and surge wave.
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Professor Rennie.
Next we have Mr. Bachrach. The floor is yours. You have two and a half minutes.
5:35 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Dr. Rennie, has your work included any assessment on the efficacy of the voluntary speed limit reductions?
5:35 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No, not directly. We'd have to get to the numerical modelling part to be able to do that, because we're only studying what's happening right now.
5:35 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Through your research, have you come into contact with any agencies or parties that are monitoring compliance with the voluntary speed limit reductions? We've heard from other witnesses that they feel that the ships aren't obeying the voluntary reductions at night.
5:35 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I know that Dr. Ridal has been communicating about this, so I'll ask him to answer this question.
5:35 p.m.
Executive Director, St. Lawrence River Institute of Environmental Sciences
Thank you.
Through you, Mr. Chair, that was a question in preparation for this meeting that I posed to our partners at the St. Lawrence Seaway Management Corporation. They know at all times what the speeds are of ships transiting the seaway. In fact, they measure compliance with respect to the speed reduction zones. I believe the compliance is considered to be pretty high.
However, one thing I found interesting is that measuring compliance is not like how we would measure compliance in a car going from 100 kilometres an hour down to 80 kilometres an hour. There are many different factors involved, and they're fairly sophisticated, including knowledge of the type of ship, the vessel, the design, the characteristics of the ship, the load and the environmental factors at play.
The other side of the coin is that the ship has a minimum speed at which it must transport in order to be safe. My understanding is that this is communication that is best decided by the captain of the vessel, but there is active communication—that is the way I understand it—between the seaway corporation and the captain with respect to these speed reduction zones.
It sounds to me that there is a commitment to ensure that these speed reductions are occurring in the reduction zones. I would like to have more information, because it sounds quite complex.
5:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Ridal.
Thank you very much, Mr. Bachrach.
Next we have Dr. Lewis. The floor is yours. You have five minutes.
5:40 p.m.
Conservative
Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I'd like to thank all the witnesses. This is a very important topic. I live on a shoreline, and this past summer we had to fortify our banks, so I know how important this issue is to homeowners especially.
My first question is for Mr. Villeneuve. I'd like to know the composition of private versus business versus government ownership along the shorelines.
5:40 p.m.
Mayor, Municipalité de Lanoraie
They are mainly residents along the coast. Approximately 98% of the 368 properties are owned by residents.
In passing, in order to do something about a coastline, it's a real battle to acquire all the authorizations and related funds. How did things turn out for you in terms of fortifying the banks.
5:40 p.m.
Conservative
Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON
Yes, but I was not on a cliff. That's the difference. In the pictures you showed me, many of the homes were on a cliff, and I know that has a completely different expense level and requirement.
Could you give us an average of what the average cost...? I know that it would depend on the size, the width and also the depth of the cliff. For the average cost that you're hearing from the residents, what would that be?
5:40 p.m.
Mayor, Municipalité de Lanoraie
Each case is different, at you're right to point out that there's a cliff.
At that location, the sand depth is approximately eight metres. Depending on the water level, it can be as deep as 10 metres.
The soil along the coast is not the same everywhere. To the east, the soil is less sandy and more like clay. To the centre and west of the village, the coast is indeed much more sandy, and hence very friable.
I know that some people obtained information about how much the work would cost, and it was extremely expensive. Talking about cost is one thing, but having to obtain all the required authorizations before beginning the work is an issue that needs attention.
5:40 p.m.
Conservative
Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON
It's not just putting rocks there to fortify it. You would probably have to put in some sort of cement type of bank in order to protect from the erosion. Is that what you're looking at for those high cliff properties?