Evidence of meeting #4 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Major rail safety incidents can have a profound impact on communities, yet these safety management systems, which are mainstays of the regulatory environment around rail safety, are entirely opaque to communities, to municipalities, to residents and to citizens. They're proprietary documents that sit within the rail companies.
Would increased transparency when it comes to these safety management systems benefit the rail safety environment in general?
4:15 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Citizens want to be reassured that the transportation systems in this country are working effectively and safely, and that if you board a plane, train or ship, you're going to arrive safely, etc. I understand that.
Trying to show somebody a safety management system is very difficult, because it's not a book on a shelf. It's got to be something that permeates day-to-day operations and mindsets.
I coined a phrase once. It's basically about looking for trouble before trouble finds you, and then taking steps to address that.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
When you talk about looking for trouble, maybe you're referring to this safety culture. I believe that safety culture is one of the stated goals of the safety management systems.
Do you believe that the safety management system process currently in place is achieving that objective of creating a safety culture within our railways?
4:15 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation. You need sound safety culture to support a solid safety management system, but culture alone without the process won't be effective.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.
In this next round, we will go to Ms. Lantsman for five minutes.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON
Thank you, Ms. Fox, for joining us.
I want to get specific and dig a bit further into what my colleagues were asking. It's about resourcing. Specifically, if you go on the TSB website, there are numerous safety incidents that have been unaddressed by the transport ministry. I'll speak about some specifics.
In August 2019, there was a fatality at the CN MacMillan rail yard, and Transport Canada hasn't, in what I've seen, scheduled a date to release the report on this death.
I want to know from you if you have any further information about when we can expect the information about this. What's happening to prevent any further deaths in the meantime?
4:15 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
With respect to the MacMillan yard occurrence, it's the Transportation Safety Board that's investigating it. We have completed the investigation. We are in the final stages of producing a report, and we will be releasing it imminently. I can't give you a specific date today. That is definitely one of the ones that I can tell you is done; it's a question of having to do the final steps to put it out the door.
It's important for the committee to know that TSB does not wait until we complete and publish an investigation report to provide safety feedback to Transport Canada and to the operator. We do that through other safety communications, things like rail safety advisory letters and rail safety information letters, so they receive information throughout the course of the investigation to help either the regulator or the operator take steps to reduce the risk of a similar reoccurrence, even before the investigation is completed.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON
In your view, does that generally happen? In this case specifically, do you see that any changes have been made, given that we haven't seen an investigation or any kind of statement on it in two years?
4:20 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
I can assure the committee that safety action was taken from this occurrence and will be part of the final report, which we hope to release later in March or early April.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON
Sure. Ms. Fox, do you think you're well resourced enough to do these investigations in a timely manner?
4:20 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Mr. Chair, we're resourced for a baseline of occurrences, but when we get either a very large investigation such as Lac-Mégantic, or when we get a series of smaller investigations, it can stretch our resources.
We can't predict when these things are going to happen or how they're going to happen. As I mentioned earlier, in 2019 we had a number of investigations. We had something like half a dozen major rail investigations going on. Therefore, it does cause us to be stretched a little thin and take a little longer, but at the same time, each investigation is different and we have to do a thorough job and get it right.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON
Seeing as though the government, in my view at least, is dismantling the Canadian energy sector, there has been a downturn in railway incidents because of the lack of traffic. I want to know your view, given that oil is the most dangerous resource to transport.
In 2021, Canada moved 1.6 million barrels of oil by rail. I think the Lac‑Mégantic disaster showed us that catastrophes can take place when moving oil by train. Do you think transporting oil via pipelines will lead to greater rail safety or a decrease in such incidents?
4:20 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Mr. Chair, we don't compare rail versus pipeline safety other than to say that each mode of transport has its risks and each mode of transport has to be conducted as safety as possible.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON
Do you believe transporting oil by rail is as safe as transporting it by pipeline, given that you don't make the comparison, but just on a number of incidents, if you're looking at it from a risk perspective?
4:20 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Mr. Chair, there are different ways of comparing risk. When a unit train carrying crude oil derails, it depends on a lot of factors, how much oil is lost, where it's lost, the impact on the environment and the possibility of casualties versus, for example, a pipeline, which can potentially leak more oil and create more environmental consequences. It's really difficult to compare.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON
Ms. Fox, I just want to make sure that if you are comparing them, you're comparing them from an environmental perspective to a loss-of-life perspective. My question is about safety and whether, in your view, less oil transmitted by rail would create better conditions for fewer incidents in terms of, let's say, the loss of life.
4:20 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Mr. Chair, it would be difficult to say that, because it's not what the train is carrying that causes the derailment. It's the track; it's the wheels; it's other factors. Therefore, what we say is if you're going to carry oil or any other dangerous good by rail, you need to take all the steps in terms of containment and other risk mitigation measures to reduce the risk of a derailment, and then mitigate with the tank cars to mitigate the consequences of a derailment.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you, Ms. Lantsman.
Ms. Koutrakis, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Annie Koutrakis Liberal Vimy, QC
Thank you, Ms. Fox and Mr. Lapointe, for coming before the committee today. Your testimony is very important and I thank you very much.
Ms. Fox, in your testimony you said that the Transportation Safety Board is unsure of reasons for the decline in accidents and uncontrolled movements in 2020. How much did rail traffic decline overall?
4:20 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
I don't have all the underlying activity data. That is one of the challenges and one of the initiatives we are working on with Transport Canada and the railway industry, including the major railways and the Railway Association of Canada.
If we look at a million train miles, there were 79 million train miles travelled in 2021 versus just over 80 million train miles in 2020. There's a difference in activity level, but we don't have a good way of calculating a rate.
Uncontrolled movements can happen in yards; they can happen on the main track or on a secondary track. The issue is trying to calculate a rate. We just don't have that activity data to calculate a rate when it comes to uncontrolled movements, but it's one of the issues we're working on with Transport Canada and the industry.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Annie Koutrakis Liberal Vimy, QC
Do you have any recommendations for how we can find one method to calculate this? It would seem to me that it's pretty important to have that kind of data.
4:25 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Mr. Chair, we absolutely agree that it's important to have activity and volume data so that you can compare apples to apples from one year to the next. All I'm saying is that for 2020 and 2021, given the effects of the pandemic and other events, the activity level dropped off. We don't have a good enough measure to compare one rate to the next.
We can say that the numbers went down. Did they go down because of the safety measures taken since 2019, or did they go down because there was less activity? That's where we don't know the answer.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Annie Koutrakis Liberal Vimy, QC
Recently in Montreal—not too far from where I live, actually—on the corner of Van-Horne and Saint-Laurent, there was a tragic accident. A young, 31-year-old woman was killed when she was illegally trespassing on rail lines.
I'm curious to know what more, in your opinion, could be done to prevent trespassing on rail lines. Is this problem getting worse or better?
4:25 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Mr. Chair, trespassing accidents are the highest number of railway fatalities every year in Canada. It is tragic to see so many people killed. There is a variety of reasons behind that.
It is a combination of security and public education issues. We haven't done very many trespassing accident investigations. When we have done them, we've looked at things like increased security, such as fencing. We've looked at the jurisdictional issues around building and land and what is built close to a railway track. Putting a school on one side and a fast food store on the other causes people to take shortcuts across tracks.
These are very big issues. I know Operation Lifesaver is very seized with this, as are Transport Canada and the railway industry.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Annie Koutrakis Liberal Vimy, QC
We also know, through testimony and various stories that we hear in the news, that crews and train operators don't always follow all of the safety measures or recommendations.
In your opinion, what action should railway companies take to ensure that crews recognize and follow railway signals?