Evidence of meeting #4 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:25 p.m.
Director, Kitselas Lands and Resources Department, Kitselas First Nation
It was validating to get the information and hear these findings, knowing that we are on the precipice of something and that growth is coming. It's one of those multi-faceted things where we know there are a bunch of things at play.
Kitselas looks at the industrial development in the region as a really big opportunity, but it also needs to know that its community members are kept safe. How do we balance that?
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
You mentioned earlier that the environmental assessments for the port expansions and the terminal projects on the coast do not include within their scope the rail transport.
Should that change? If so, how?
5:25 p.m.
Director, Kitselas Lands and Resources Department, Kitselas First Nation
It's definitely something that needs to change. We're doing all sorts of scoping and analysis on all sorts of effects from these projects, big and small. Our 2019 determinants of health report was a part of these studies. The potential of the effects resulting from increased traffic, both real and possible, as well as environmental and socio-economic, are not assessed or addressed in any legislation.
In our experience, the rationale for including that into the scope relates to a lack of jurisdiction. Proponents typically lack care and control over products being transported by rail. The province has to defer to Transport Canada's as the lead regulator of transportation, but Transport Canada's legislation and regulations exclusively govern safe operation of traffic, typically in the form of these emergency response plans—the ERAPs.
The potential impacts resulting from these, including increased noise, wildlife strikes, air emissions and impediments to access for community members to vital sources, like the river where they're fishing, are all overlooked.
For Kitselas and many other communities in this area—both indigenous and otherwise—that are intersected by the rail, this represents a huge regulatory gap for our community.
5:30 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Mr. Apps, I have one more question here.
I know that when the volume of liquid propane shipped through the rail corridor increased significantly, it triggered a federal regulation called “key trains and key routes”. This required the railroad company to conduct its own risk assessment.
Did the rail company consult Kitselas on that risk assessment? Have you ever received consultation on rail risk, either by the federal government or the rail company?
5:30 p.m.
Director, Kitselas Lands and Resources Department, Kitselas First Nation
The short answer is no. Consultation, whether it has a big “C” or a small “c”, has a lot of implications, especially in 2022. However, we were informed that we would be able to be a participant in that process. It was very difficult for us to go through, because we had an opportunity to submit a letter and provide input, and we were informed that CN had a website that we could submit our comments.
My team and I drafted a response to flag and say we would like to participate as a nation that's affected as a stakeholder on this line, because we know that this key route assessment is going to be undertaken. However, once we went to submit it, we were limited to 500 characters, so we were more or less “tweeting” our request to be included in the consultative process. We submitted that and never received a response.
I will be including both a screenshot and the letter that we wanted to submit in our briefing note to the committee.
5:30 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Mr. Apps.
This is my last question for you. When you talk to the rail companies, how would you characterize their engagement with first nations along the rail corridor? Would you say that they've been responsive to the concerns that are raised by these first nations and first nations communities?
5:30 p.m.
Director, Kitselas Lands and Resources Department, Kitselas First Nation
I would say that it's extremely difficult for them to be responsive. Their response has been hot and cold over the course of my tenure working with Kitselas and trying to engage with CN.
I am unaware of their staffing abilities and their ability to reach out and discuss across the line. Indigenous groups becoming more and more aware of the risks and threats that are posed by the rail represents a very scary reality for CN.
No, the relationship-building process has not been a truly consultative one, particularly in this regard.
5:30 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Apps.
Mr. Chair, I have one question for Mr. Isaak, if I may.
Mr. Isaak, you spoke to some of the concerns around the fact that railways have private, corporate police forces that investigate them when there are major accidents, including those involving fatalities. You alluded to the need for that situation to change dramatically in the future.
How important is it that legislative change is made to ensure accountability for rail disasters? What would that legislation look like to make the investigations into these accidents more accountable, more transparent and more effective?
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
5:30 p.m.
President, Teamsters Canada Rail Conference
It's extremely important. We have three dead people at the bottom of Field Hill because of what, so far, has been described as brake failure. Like I said, we still haven't received the TSB final report, but that's their initial take on it.
We have had something like 12 fatalities in the last three years across Canada in the rail industry. I don't know in what world we think a railway company is going to investigate and find itself criminally liable in court. What world are we living in?
This is going to require an amendment to section 44 of the Railway Safety Act to curb or change the jurisdiction and the power of these corporate police forces. That's what it's going to take.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you, Mr. Isaak.
If you want to expand on your response, we encourage you to submit the response in writing.
I would like to thank you all, colleagues, for your thoughtful questions and to thank our witnesses on behalf of all committee members for your testimony today. That concludes today's meeting.
The committee is now adjourned.