Transport Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chahal.

Thank you, Mr. Accardi.

Next we have Mr. Strahl. Mr. Strahl, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Thank you very much.

To continue some of the discussion, Mr. Bachrach mentioned Greyhound's heyday. Not to date myself, but I think that probably would have been 25 years ago. I certainly recall—again, I'm speaking about my region—when the Abbotsford airport became a regional hub and welcomed WestJet 25 years ago. Many Canadians who previously used Greyhound because they didn't have another option are now using some of the discount airlines, such as Flair and Swoop, especially with fares being low right now.

Is there an opportunity for the motorcoach industry or intercity busing to not do what they used to do, which was take people from Vancouver to Calgary, but rather to get people to Prince George so that they can get on a plane and get to their final destination? Is there any vision for connectivity with small regional airports that carry the passengers that buses used to carry? It's now being done with a different mode of transport.

I'm asking whether there is interoperability—whether you're looking to coordinate your schedules with smaller regional airlines in order to get people to regional transit hubs, which are now usually, in this case, the airports.

I don't know if that is to Mr. Accardi or....

Another way to ask the question is this: Are any of you providing service to smaller regional airports?

[Tracy MacPhee]

I would like to jump in here and state that we provide connectivity to Pearson Airport. We are trying to connect people throughout rural Ontario. We get them connected to GO Transit so that they can get to Pearson Airport. We are already doing that.

In terms of regional airports, we had conversations with different airports in our area. Many regional airports throughout rural Ontario have lost a lot of service, and that service hasn't come back. There might be only one flight a day, operating at a time when our one bus trip a day doesn't coincide with those flights. The regional airports are trying to set up their flight schedules to connect with larger airports like Toronto and Vancouver, in order to meet up during times that will give them further connections throughout the world.

It's a very difficult thing to try to set up. We have certainly tried with others.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

I certainly appreciate that.

There was some talk too about the government or public sector having some way to allow for multiple different modes or companies to offer services, so that a passenger could book a ticket seamlessly and travel seamlessly. They have transfers, etc. Perhaps you could call it a one-stop shop for travel planning.

Obviously, there are multi-million-dollar companies that do this for other modes of transport. Is there no margin for them to include this option? Why wouldn't—I'll pick a name—Expedia be a better option for offering this service to travellers than a level of government trying to create the same level of expertise that already exists in the private space?

I don't know who would like to take a run at that. Perhaps Mr. Johnson would.

[Terence Johnson]

I'd love to take a run at that.

One thing that happened when the railways in the U.K. were privatized, and therefore fragmented, was the resurrection of a 19th-century concept called a “railway clearing house”, which was a kind of non-profit co-operative among the carriers. It wasn't a heavy-handed government thing. It was through the industry's organization, but it was the glue that helped the industry stay together.

That's what I mean by creating a non-profit clearing house. If you have Expedia do it, they'll want 15%. You can ask any carrier you like whether it has 15% margins to give away. I can pretty much guess what the answer will be, because this is not a high-margin industry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Johnson.

Thank you, Mr. Strahl.

Next we have Mr. Iacono.

Mr. Iacono, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here this afternoon, it's been very interesting.

Mr. D'Angelo, what demographic groups and communities will be most vulnerable if there is a decrease in intercity bus transport?

[Marco D'Angelo]

It's a bit difficult to hear the question in French in the room.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Could you repeat the question, Mr. Iacono?

I'm going to ask them to increase the volume in the room.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

I'll repeat the question a bit louder.

What demographic groups and communities will be most vulnerable if there is a decrease in intercity bus transport?

[Marco D'Angelo]

The elderly might be most affected. I'm very proud of Quebec today. The mayor of Montreal announced that beginning on July 1, 2023, they will be able to travel free of charge on the Société de transport de Montréal, the STM. This will greatly facilitate intercity travel because many people have to go through greater Montreal

There are also agencies like Exo, which provide service in the suburbs of greater Montreal and neighbouring areas.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

I would like to add to your response that I've used Greyhound quite a bit. I remember that when I was using it, a lot of students were using it from Montreal to Ottawa to go to school, and a lot of public servants, believe it or not, were working in Ottawa—I was one of them—and living in Montreal and travelling back and forth every morning and every night. I think it affects the whole population. It's not just the old people, but everybody as a whole.

Mr. Johnson, since the withdrawal of Greyhound, have we seen new private sector operators emerge?

[Terence Johnson]

Absolutely, and you have one right here in the room with Rider Express. You have Onex Bus in southwestern Ontario as an example. You have a company called Book A Ride.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Have those new and private sector operators contacted the provinces? What's the feedback? What's the dialogue with the provinces?

You know, this is mainly a provincial jurisdiction, and yet we're hearing a lot that we want the federal government to intervene. Obviously there's always that question that we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't. How do we find a balance?

Also, you know very well that when the federal government needs to get involved, it needs to receive a notice, a request from the provinces. Obviously with the bus routes, it's going to affect multiple provinces. It's not going to affect just one province in particular. How have these new carriers dealt with their provinces respectively?

[Terence Johnson]

Actually, Kasper Transportation in northern Ontario is an example of one that existed while regulations were still in place in Ontario. They went through the application process for regulated routes, whereas now Ontario is deregulated and it's a free-for-all, as I was mentioning earlier. I believe the western Prairie provinces are also quite deregulated.

As you heard Mr. Uray say, he gets very little contact from the provincial government. That now appears to be the same case in Ontario. What we see in Ontario is that operators were able to do Toronto and Ottawa, and then they weren't able to go to Montreal because they had to jump through hoops to go into Quebec. We actually went to the Quebec government last year saying, “Look, can you please allow operators from eastern Ontario to come into the Gare d'autocars in Montreal so that you're not effectively regulating Ontario?” As a matter of fact, that was the net effect of what was happening. The regulation ended up crossing the provincial border when it was just being done by the province.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

If there continues to be a demand for intercity bus transportation, is it not reasonable to assume that the private sector will fill in this need? Why aren't there more actors involved?

[Terence Johnson]

It's partly because of the timing. A large number of newer operators have entered since the end of the pandemic. Some people were keeping the powder dry. Those who were already in the market, out of a sense of a responsibility to the communities they served, carried on, but there are a lot of routes that are not sustainable on their own.

We were asked earlier about the social contract. If you have five competing operators between Toronto and Ottawa, some of them are going to lose a lot of money, and certainly none of them are going to have money to spare to run a service up near north of Peterborough or wherever else you might want to have a service so that all Canadians are connected. The profit motive is not going to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Johnson. Unfortunately, we're going to have to end your remarks there.

Thank you very much, Mr. Iacono.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor now for two and a half minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll begin with a question for Mr. Accardi.

There's a new policy in Quebec that will make it impossible at some point for public transit corporations to finance the acquisition of buses that are not electric.

To be sure, buses in the private sector are not funded by the government, but we are beginning to see bus electrification in the public sector. I would imagine that this transition will inevitably occur for private-sector buses in the intercity transportation sector.

I was in fact wondering about the extent to which your members or you yourself had begun to take steps in this direction. How much progress has occurred in this area? Do you see the transition occurring in the short, medium or long-term?

[Vince Accardi]

As Mr. D'Angelo pointed out, there is a fund that is helping some of our private operators offset the additional costs of electrification. Depending on the use of the vehicle, it has its spots. For example, on the east coast and the west coast, servicing crews are able to come in, pick up guests, take them on their tour, go back and plug the bus in overnight. It works. Right now, the challenge is with getting the power stations across Canada and on our major routes so that buses can charge along long distances.

The industry is moving towards this, but it's not without its challenges, especially coming out of a post-COVID environment when cash and access to liquidity are challenges for private operators. They're on it, and they're ready. Programs like that, for private operators who can access them, are going to be helpful in moving that needle forward.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you.

I myself drive an electric vehicle, and I have found that there are some difficulties with that, but I also found that for a drive from the Montreal area to Ottawa, for example, it might be useful to look into a number of bus routes, even if they take several hours. Once at the destination, drivers only need to connect the vehicle for a few hours, and in the meantime take a break or go and eat a meal.

In any event, the person doing the driving will have to stop at some point. If the stops can be arranged to coincide with when you need to recharge the battery or when the driver needs a break, then that might make sense.

That's my own point of view. Of course you're the specialist, and I'm not. That's why I would like to hear what you have to say. Do you think this transition is about to happen?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Unfortunately, Barsalou-Duval, You don't have enough time for the answer.

Next we have Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours. You have two and a half minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Johnson, I'm curious if you've come across other countries in the world that have integrated national passenger bus services. Who should Canada look to as rail leaders in this space?

[Terence Johnson]

Mr. Bachrach, I will apologize for not having a very good answer for you. My organization did commission a research study over the summer to look at this very question. Maybe, in due course, we will be able to point to models of things that are working.

What I would say is what works very well south of the border is Amtrak's Thruway model. In this model, they have contracted or partnered to extend services to particular areas. They didn't make it a public-sector operator, but they partnered well with the private sector. I think that could work well here.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

You mentioned earlier this idea of a clearing house to provide passengers with a one-stop shop for the patchwork of services available out there. This is being looked at in northern British Columbia right now to help passengers navigate a patchwork of public services.

Now we have various public services and we don't have that one-stop shop, but it feels to me like that's not the whole answer, because if what we have is a patchwork of disconnected private sector service providers, helping passengers see that on one website doesn't seem to really help them get where they need to go, or it's at least not the full picture. What role should the federal government play in filling out that picture and ensuring consistent pricing, accessibility, service levels and all those other pieces?