Evidence of meeting #43 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
Director, Policy and Research, Federation of Canadian Municipalities
In 10 seconds, one thing that FCM is focused on is the future of federal infrastructure programming. We've heard from members that infrastructure is part of rebuilding, especially downtown in larger urban centres post pandemic, to support attractions and to help bring tourists back.
I will say, in the context of this study—
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
I'm sorry, Mr. Gemmel. I'm going to have to end it there and turn it over to our next line of questions, which will be led by Mr. Chahal.
The floor is yours. You have six minutes.
November 30th, 2022 / 5:10 p.m.
Liberal
George Chahal Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses for your testimony today.
I'm going to start with Dr. Alhassan and then go with Dr. Hanson afterwards.
The federal government offered to work with provinces to restore some routes after Greyhound withdrew from western Canada. To your knowledge, how did the Government of Saskatchewan respond to this offer?
Dr. Alhassan, could you go first?
5:15 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Department of Community Health and Epidemiology, College of Medicine, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
Thank you very much.
That's a very good question. In the case of Saskatchewan, they actually rejected the federal government's offer of financial support in the context of the loss of the Saskatchewan Transportation Company.
In many ways, it was probably because the closure of the STC was likely connected to ideological reasons. It's not entirely clear why a government would refuse to take money to ensure that a company could run when the company was shut down for not making money,.
We've written some of this stuff up and published it in academic journals. Ideological considerations are probably the most logical explanation to make sense of such a decision by our government in response to the federal government.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
George Chahal Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB
Thank you for that. It's sad to hear that this is why they're making decisions.
Dr. Hanson, would you like to comment as well?
5:15 p.m.
Professor, Department of Sociology and Social Studies, University of Regina, As an Individual
I think that just speaks to the need for a nationally led transportation system and one that engages a broad base of citizens across the country.
Canada doesn't have a lot of transportation studies. A lot of studies have been done internationally. Transport Canada and Infrastructure Canada did fund some SSHRC work that we were privileged to participate in. However, I think there is room for a lot more work in terms of what the cost is of not having a national transportation system.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
George Chahal Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB
Very good. Thank you.
I'm going to go back to Dr. Alhassan.
The withdrawal of Greyhound occurred shortly after the Government of Saskatchewan closed the Saskatchewan Transportation Company. Is that correct?
5:15 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Department of Community Health and Epidemiology, College of Medicine, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
That's right. It was not very long after. STC was shut down in May of 2017 and by 2018, Greyhound withdrew from most of western Canada.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
George Chahal Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB
Okay. I think that's a very important point there.
I want to stay with you, and then I'll go to Dr. Hanson afterwards.
Which communities were most affected in Saskatchewan by the closure and by Greyhound leaving?
5:15 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Department of Community Health and Epidemiology, College of Medicine, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
It's hard for me to respond for Greyhound, but I would respond more for the STC, which was serving Saskatchewan residents before Greyhound withdrew.
At the time the STC was operating, it was serving 253 communities. That's a big number, compared to what Dr. Hanson was saying about three communities now being serviced by the private carriers. It was a well-connected system.
I think in many cases the two are related—the STC closure and the Greyhound closure—partly because they fed each other. If a person knows that they can travel out of Saskatchewan and join another bus that is connected to Greyhound and go to Manitoba or some other place, then the two are connected. If STC is lost because of whatever reason and Greyhound can no longer receive the passengers they would have received through the STC, then it affects Greyhound's ability to operate as well. These things are interconnected in some ways.
We've moved from 253 communities to three communities, so that gives you a sense of the level of change we are talking about.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
George Chahal Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB
Dr. Hanson, can you comment on which communities were most affected in the province of Saskatchewan?
5:15 p.m.
Professor, Department of Sociology and Social Studies, University of Regina, As an Individual
Ditto to what Dr. Alhassan is saying, but what this also illustrates is that intercommunity, intercity and inter-regional aspects—all of these aspects of a transportation system—are interconnected, and we can't address one without addressing the other ones.
When you asked me what's been affected, I think about my last ride to my home community, which is north of Prince Albert, and I see the person trying to ride the bicycle with a sign on the back that says, please give me a ride.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
George Chahal Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB
Thank you.
Dr. Alhassan, you commented in your opening on what what the savings would be for the cut of $85 million in the austerity budget. If you had to restore that service again today, what would that cost look like? Do you have an estimate?
5:15 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Department of Community Health and Epidemiology, College of Medicine, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
No, unfortunately I don't have an estimate, but I know it would be far more than what it was assumed it would save. The STC's budget per year was not above $20 million. This $85 million was supposed to be the savings for a five-year period.
In terms of the actual cost of restarting, the buses have been sold off. We're talking about 41 buses that have been sold off. The people no longer work for the STC. It's much harder to maintain something like that than to restart it, so it will be a little bit more costly, but of course, as a couple of people have mentioned, we also have to think about the cost of the status quo. The current situation we have is far more costly even than the $85 million or the cost of restarting. The cost of people not going to hospitals and the cost of people—
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Alhassan, and thank you, Mr. Chahal.
Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, you have the floor for six minutes.
5:20 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to begin by thanking the witnesses who are before us today to talk about the reality of intermunicipal bus transportation.
I must admit that I have learned a lot from listening to your testimony. Coming from Quebec, I must say that I don't really know the reality of western Canada. In any case, I can see how traumatic the loss of Greyhound must have been, since everyone, witness after witness, has spoken about it.
In Quebec, I would say we are less familiar with this. There are intercity transportation services that were hard hit during the pandemic, but I couldn't say that there was as big a crisis as what we saw in the west, where there were serial closures, although there were significant financial difficulties experienced by Quebec carriers.
Mr. Cassidy, in your intervention, you said that the private sector could be made eligible for certain forms of funding to provide intercity transportation services, given that it is hardly profitable. I've had the opportunity to meet with several bus operators in Quebec. They said that what they found difficult during the pandemic was not having help paying for their buses. Even though there were measures to help with labour and rent, the buses did not pay for themselves, even if they were immobilized and there was no one on board.
In this context, it would make sense to implement a program that would revive the bus industry and compensate for the difficulties experienced in the past by operators such as yourself. However, I know that we also have a shared commitment to transition to clean energy, to achieve carbon neutrality and to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
If a program aimed at the electrification of buses, for example, were to be put in place, would you see some value in it?
5:20 p.m.
Owner, Coach Atlantic Maritime Bus
Thank you very much.
Electrification will be coming to the bus industry in the future, but when we think of electrification on a motorcoach, we have to think of range and we have to think of battery storage. The battery storage is underneath our bus, where you usually see suitcases or parcels when it comes to the line-run business.
An electric motorcoach would not be practical when you cannot travel the kilometres that we do on a daily basis for range and we literally have no storage underneath our bus. Again, passengers and parcels have to use that storage.
The other thing is that today we could say that a brand new diesel bus is approximately $725,000. You might be looking at $1.2 million for an electric motorcoach. Pricing alone is another contributing factor that would suggest that electric motorcoaches for line runs are not practical today. However, I could turn that around in terms of our public transit operation in greater Charlottetown. I could tell you that electrification for public transit on municipal streets is practical. There is government funding to help on the pricing, and you certainly have your range, but it's the public transit infrastructure fund that is driving electrification at the municipal level.
As I said in my opening remarks, public transit on provincial highways should be treated no differently from public transit on municipal streets.
5:25 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
You seem to be saying that in your opinion the technology is not advanced enough to allow this type of program to contribute to a revival of the sector in general. Would there be other ways to revive the bus sector?
Obviously, the subject under consideration is very interesting, but the fact remains that bus transport is managed by municipalities and provinces. So, from the perspective of respecting the responsibilities of each level of government, I was wondering how the federal government could help you with your operations.
5:25 p.m.
Owner, Coach Atlantic Maritime Bus
In my opening remarks we had the letter from the four Atlantic provinces, in which, to their minds, jurisdiction is not a problem. They are willing to assist. They are willing to collaborate with the federal government. I think that is very important.
This is not an issue of jurisdiction. This is an issue of getting something done because it's the right thing to do. When you have four Atlantic provinces writing to the Minister of Transport, and the Minister of Infrastructure is willing to contribute to the acquisition of buses in a line-run situation, I think that is very favourable, to the point that I have tried to position the Atlantic provinces to be a pilot study so we can understand exactly what is happening in this business and we can take the program across the country.
At Maritime Bus—as you heard last week in your meetings here—we have seven terminals. We cross-ship parcels. We live on a feeder system. We support 40 communities in our region. We have low-revenue-producing routes. We want to stay supportive, but at the same time an infrastructure program that could help us with the capital cost of our buses would lower the amount in payments that we make. That extra cash flow can help us make it sustainable to operate.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Cassidy.
Thank you very much, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.
Next we have Mr. Bachrach.
Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to all of our witnesses. This has been an excellent bit of testimony, which I think will be very useful for our study.
I'd like to start with Dr. Alhassan.
At the outset, you called for a national public transportation system. A lot of our conversation over the course of this study has been about the pros and cons of a public model versus a private model or some sort of hybrid in-between.
Could you lay out what you see as the main advantages of a public model?
5:25 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Department of Community Health and Epidemiology, College of Medicine, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
I think that there are many advantages to be gained from relying on a public model. The first is that we eliminate the prioritization of profit and we focus on other considerations that are quite important, like thinking of mobility as a human rights issue.
When you think of public transportation as a tool to the achievement of a number of goals beyond profit, it opens up opportunity for Canada to take on a certain kind of leadership in how we think about public transportation. For example, think about climate change. I just gave the example of 50 people in a bus; with that, you are saving 50 cars from being on the road. If you make these things private, if you think of transportation with a private approach rather than a public approach, the thing is that there are often communities that end up being left out because they don't make enough money on those routes. I think the STC example is a very good one of moving from serving 253 communities to picking the communities that you think are the most profitable.
Again, if we use a public model, we start to think more carefully about the possibilities of making sure that people can have access to goods and services in a way that private providers may not necessarily consider. In some cases they might; I'm sure that there are private companies that may have the interest in running a route even though the route doesn't bring the profit that is needed, but for the most part, that cannot be expected of most private companies.
The reason I keep pushing for a national public transportation system is that we get out of that problem of people refusing to run certain routes because they believe that the route is not profitable. We can start to prioritize equity. We can start to make sure that particular groups or people with disabilities, indigenous communities and racialized communities that are often excluded are able to be prioritized. Those groups can then have the ability to access goods and services in a way that is fair and guided by human rights principles.
5:30 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Dr. Alhassan.
I'll turn now to Dr. Hanson.
Dr. Hanson, is passenger transportation unique or is it part of a larger trend affecting rural Canada?
5:30 p.m.
Professor, Department of Sociology and Social Studies, University of Regina, As an Individual
I could basically speak on that, I think, from the example of STC. In that case it was passenger transportation, but it was also charters that were profitable. It was also the system of bringing goods from one location to another, which is also profitable, so there are profit arms of a public transportation system. I'm not sure that it totally answers your question.
I also want to point out that both scholars and politicians in Mexico and the U.S. have advocated a mobility bill of rights. If Canada could get behind this—and I think we have a Minister of Transport who is supportive of it—I think it moves us in a direction of seeing mobility rights as human rights.
I also want to talk about the environment, and this is also a way for Canada to achieve our environmental goals.
5:30 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Dr. Hanson.
I'll turn now to Mr. Gemmel.
I'm wondering, Mr. Gemmel, if you can characterize the current status of the conversation around this idea of an interconnected national passenger bus transportation network. What's the status of the intergovernmental conversation on that topic?