Transport Committee on Dec. 5th, 2022

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I would appreciate it, thank you.

I would also like to discuss the question of airport noise with you.

People call my office and my colleagues' offices about this. They see helicopters flying at low altitude, landing in fields, and flying over houses. If it happened once a month or once a week, nobody would be tearing their hair out. However, when the planes that fly over their homes on a daily basis prevent them from spending time outside barbecuing, for example, or wake them up in the middle of the night, that is especially frustrating for them. People get the feeling that they have no recourse to solve the problem. They call the airport but they get voicemail. As MPs, we try to talk to you about it, but it is difficult to get any tangible results.

Can solutions be found to this problem, or can there at least be a record of complaints and the minimum altitudes be raised? At the moment, helicopters are asked to fly at 1,000 feet, but people hear them clearly in their backyards. So the...

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval. You will have to wait for the next round of questions to get answers.

Next we have Mr. Bachrach.

The floor is yours. You have six minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the officials for being here.

I'd like to pick up on an issue that I raised several months ago when you were last here, Mr. Keenan, and this relates to the use of tugboats under 15 tonnes on the B.C. coast.

Obviously, following the 2021 sinking of the Ingenika near Kitimat, which took the lives of two men, a lot of attention has turned to the lack of regulations in this industry, particularly for these smaller vessels.

I do know there is a regulatory review process under way; however, I'm still unclear on why certain rules haven't been put in place. Starting with the issue of commercial vessel certification, I just read on Transport Canada's website that all small marine commercial vessels between 15 and 150 gross tonnage must be certified by Transport Canada. Any smaller vessel that carries more than 12 passengers must also be inspected and certified; yet we have these commercial vessels under 15 tonnes that are operating in all kinds of weather towing giant loads and they don't have to be certified as commercial vessels.

Isn't there a simple change that Transport Canada could require of companies that operate these small tugboats to have them inspected and certified?

[Michael Keenan]

Mr. Chair, first of all I'd like to recognize the unfailing commitment and time spent by the member on transportation safety, rail safety and tug safety in particular, and I do recall the very exacting question with respect to the towing capacity of tugs.

The member raises a fair point in the context of the marine safety system. The level of regulations and regulatory oversight is less for smaller vessels below 15 tonnes. The entire Canada Shipping Act and the international marine safety system has a line where there is much more oversight of larger vessels. The member has raised issues about certification of these, because they do operate commercial vessels, and the west coast of B.C. has a large number of tugs that are just under 15 tonnes.

One thing we have done in response to this and other incidents is to do a lot of outreach to the industry. We've pulled together a comprehensive package to explain what they're required to do, and we've taken our oversight resources and targeted more of them on that sector of the industry so they have a sense that they're being inspected, and we're seeing some progress there.

In terms of the exact question you've asked, I'm unsure, but I'm going to turn it over to my colleague Nick Robinson from safety and security.

Nick, do you know the exact answer to the member's question?

[Nicholas Robinson, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport]

There are certification standards related to those vessels under 15 gross tonnes. We have hull certification requirements for those sorts of tugs, and we could provide those regulations as well as the guidelines and the document with the numbers—a document that provides guidelines around the construction, certification and inspection of those tugs under the 15-gross tonne limit.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Okay.

[Michael Keenan]

If I could jump in, I think you raise a good point. There is a perception in the industry that there are no regulatory requirements. What Nick was describing is the work that we've done recently to make it clear to the industry that there are regulatory standards they're expected to maintain. The level of inspection is not as comprehensive as on the larger vessels, but we have shifted some resources into that sector because of some of the safety risks that we've seen, which the member has done a great job of bringing to light.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Deputy Minister, you mentioned there are a great number of these vessels just under 15 tonnes operating on the B.C. coast, and it seems to me that the government has set a threshold for commercial certification and inspection that costs the industry money. Let's be fair about that. As a result, there are a lot of vessels that fall just under that certification threshold. We have a lot of incidents on the B.C. coast reported by the media, and by the union that represents tugboat workers. There are a lot of safety incidents. I also hear stories about companies modifying the vessels so that they're able to get under that 15-tonne threshold.

It seems to me like we should err on the side of caution, on the side of worker safety, and should simply require these vessels to be held to the same commercial inspection and certification standard that a whale-watching vessel that holds 12 tourists is held to. Does that not seem to be a fair? When we're talking about worker safety and situations where men have died on our coast, it just seems like a simple fix: change the threshold.

Why hasn't Transport Canada done that?

[Michael Keenan]

On the fact that there is a safety issue with small tugs we agree, and we've been taking a series of steps and actions to address that through outreach, oversight and enforcement.

Wiping away the distinction between larger and smaller vessels is not.... We've certainly raised the bar for the tugs under 15 tonnes, and we're always looking at what else we can do in that respect. But going in and rewriting the Canada Shipping Act to eliminate the distinction between smaller vessels and larger vessels would be inconsistent with the international marine safety system.

We're continuing to look at that. I would agree with the member that we see a higher incident rate, risk rate, for smaller vessels, whether it's a passenger vessel—these passenger vessels under 12 passengers do not have the same requirements as the larger ferries and the larger cruise ships—and we see it on the commercial side. On both sides we're actually trying to strengthen that because that is where the risk is, and so the question is well put.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Keenan, and Mr. Bachrach. I know you had another question, Mr. Bachrach. It looks like we will be able to get back to you to follow up.

Next we have Mr. Strahl.

Mr. Strahl, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Keenan, I'm hoping you can tell me what percentage of Transport Canada employees have returned to work in the office?

[Michael Keenan]

I can tell you that, first of all, the return to work in the office is not a great way of.... We are measuring this. I'll give you a number in a second when Ryan reminds me, but going back to the work, we've been very careful because many Transport Canada employees never work in an office. We have thousands of people whose job is—

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Right. Without getting into that, I wanted to know how close we are to prepandemic normal, if we can say it that way.

[Michael Keenan]

We've been tracking that, and taking into account what I just said, we're running currently at about 40% of the pattern we saw before the pandemic in terms of people coming into the office.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

We heard in testimony on labour shortages, etc., and some of the studies we've done, about the increase in delays in getting.... Obviously there was a pilot medical issue, which I understand there's been some resolution to, but in terms of restricted access passes, and all of the things that Transport Canada has to provide approvals for for security reasons, they are being delayed.

How close are you to getting back to your prepandemic service standard on authorizations, if I can put it that way?

[Michael Keenan]

There are three parts to that.

I've heard the same suggestion, that because we've had folks remotely at home, we are less productive. I can tell you, without question, that the opposite is true. In the last two years, Transport Canada—I've been the deputy for seven years—has done much more than it's ever done before. For most of that period, we had most of our employees working from home. If you look at any measure in terms of the regulatory work, the policy work, we got more done with the same number of people. They're kind of tired right now because a lot of them have been working a lot of overtime, but we've been more productive as an organization.

As part of our hybrid policy, we're still encouraging people to come in to the work site to spend time together. It's not for productivity; it's for other reasons.

With respect to the service standard, on things like ATIP, for example, we maintained all our ATIP services right through. We didn't skip a beat on stuff like that.

With respect to transportation security clearances, we maintained a service standard. We got a little behind in the spring when we had an avalanche of new applications. One of the challenges in the air sector was the 280% increase in traffic. The airports and the airlines hired a ton of people and sent us a tidal wave of applications. We brought that back down to pretty close to prepandemic levels.

We had a similar problem with aviation medicals. For 70% of the applications, we dramatically reduced the time required because we went to instant approvals. We were able to do that because we had a digital system, which we put in place because we actually had everybody working at home.

So, we've been able to be more productive, and we've been able to get back. Where we have a problem, I have to concede—and we're still working on it—is with complex medical cases. There's a backlog there that is not where we want it to be, and we're continuing to work on that.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

A final question that has come up repeatedly in media reports, as well as stakeholder meetings, is about the inability to load grain in Vancouver in the rain. As a west coaster, I can tell you that's a lot of days. Obviously, industry recognizes that there are legitimate safety concerns, but the proposals are so onerous. Setting up a railing system that takes four or five hours just makes it uneconomical. However, it's also noted that we're the only jurisdiction that has this issue on the west coast.

What can you tell us about the department's efforts to work with industry and labour to come up with a solution that will address this problem?

[Michael Keenan]

It's a really important issue. You can, more or less, count the days where it doesn't rain in Vancouver in the winter as opposed to the days it does rain.

We are currently working, in the context of the supply chain challenges, with the industry on any place where we see there's an opportunity to make progress. There has been a safety arbitration ruling that goes back to 2017 or 2018, I think, and some regulations that came in with it that have restricted, as the member said, the rules around the loading of the grain. That is having an impact on a number of days in Vancouver.

We've just done some work reaching out, talking to the grain industry, talking to union leadership, talking to the terminal operators in Vancouver. We're trying to facilitate a discussion to try to find a solution to that. We're optimistic that, with creative thinking and with the importance of feeding a hungry world, there may be an opportunity to find a solution where on more of those rainy days there is a safe way to load the grain ships. That discussion is under way.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I'm sorry, Mr. Keenan. Unfortunately, there's no time left for a response.

We will continue with Mr. El-Khoury for five minutes.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here to share their views and answer questions from committee members.

Big infrastructure projects like these are notoriously difficult when it comes to staying on budget. What precautions is Transport Canada taking in that regard?

[Michael Keenan]

I'm sorry, but I didn't understand the question. What precautions are you talking about?

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

I'll repeat my question.

In the case of big infrastructure projects like these, it is difficult to stay on budget. What precautions is Transport Canada taking in that regard?

[Michael Keenan]

I understand.

You are entirely correct to say that it is very difficult to stay on budget and on time in the case of big projects.

Transport Canada is focused on one very large project, which is the high-frequency rail project. As my colleague, Mr. Robitaille, indicated, we're working very systemically with the experts in the industry whom we need in building relationships and partnerships.

We're building an internal capacity through the incorporation of VIA's high-frequency rail to bring the best project management expertise into the employ of the Government of Canada in order to manage the project going forward, and bring as much transparency as we can.

When a problem is encountered, we want to make sure it is in the open and the partners on the project are working to find a solution. The key strategy is to avoid allowing any of the problems to be buried and hidden, where they grow and grow and then explode into terrible cost overruns or terrible delays.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Why was a decision made to invest in improving railway service in northern Manitoba at this time?

[Michael Keenan]

If I may, I am going to ask my colleague Stephanie Hébert to answer, because she is the one who manages that project.