Transport Committee on Dec. 5th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I call this meeting back to order.

We will begin our round of questioning for the second panel with Mr. Muys.

Mr. Muys, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you to all the departmental officials for being here today again. I know that some of you are returning.

I'm not sure who to direct this question to. Maybe we'll start with the deputy minister, or you can deflect it to someone else if they're the subject matter expert.

In August when we had the meeting on the chaos at airports, the minister cited the figures regarding flight delays and cancellations from that particular week and the week previous, and showed that there had been an incremental improvement week over week.

Do we know where we sit today in Canada's airports, in terms of flight delays and cancellations, and how those compare with numbers from other jurisdictions?

[Michael Keenan, Deputy Minister, Department of Transport]

Thank you for the question.

I appreciate the invitation to refer to colleagues when necessary.

Mr. Chair, the member is exactly right. There has been some significant progress. Starting around the third week of July the numbers began to turn. There were very high rates of cancellations and delays at that time. We've seen some significant improvements.

I'll give you an example. Toronto Pearson is down to 2% cancellations in the last week. Vancouver is down to 1.5%. Montreal-Trudeau is 2.7% and Calgary is 0.6%.

That's slightly higher but running in the neighbourhood of the rate of cancellations we saw before COVID. The cancelled flight rates, which were at one point well over 10%, have come way down to about normal rates, or slightly above.

In terms of on-time performance, there have been significant improvements across the system from the summer. The rate of delays has come down significantly. It is still staying a little bit higher than before 2019. It's part of the system continuing to come into balance.

There was a point in the summer when Canadian airports were in a tough position relative to other airports. Their relative performance has improved as we've come into the fall. The system is generally getting to a better passenger experience, where you're much more likely to get to the destination and much less likely to be delayed in the process therein.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

How does that compare to other jurisdictions, like in the United States, for example, or in Europe?

[Michael Keenan]

If you take cancellations, you'll see that New York is at 0.5%, Newark is at 0.5% and Chicago is at 0.5%. Those American airports are still slightly ahead of the Canadian airports. Frankfurt, Beijing and places like that will typically be a little bit higher.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

You're citing some figures from 2019, from this past summer and maybe the past week or month, in comparison to other jurisdictions.

I wonder if you would be willing to table those with the committee as well, just so we have them in front of us as a reference for the future.

[Michael Keenan]

We'd be happy to send them along.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Another thing we've studied as a committee—and I know that all federal departments are seized with this—is the labour shortages that are impacting this sector.

We've heard at committee here about being 30,000 truckers short in the trucking industry, 50,000 short in the marine industry, and another 50,000 short in the air sector going forward or forecasted. These are large numbers.

Are you concerned about that? What are we doing to accelerate the pace of filling those gaps?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Please give a very quick response.

[Michael Keenan]

Very quickly, this is an area of key concern for the minister, for Transport Canada and for all of our provincial colleagues in the transportation sector.

There is work between transportation sector officials and counterparts in immigration and employment, training and skills to get people into the training programs to have those qualifications needed for the future growth of the industry in all of the sectors mentioned by the member.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Keenan.

Thank you, Mr. Muys.

Next we have Mr. Chahal.

The floor is yours. You have six minutes.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I'll also be sharing my time with Mr. Badawey.

Thank you for joining us today.

Following up on my questions for the minister, can transport officials clarify what needs to happen before direct flights can be offered between Calgary and New Delhi or Amritsar? Is Canada prepared to agree to this?

If the holdup is on the Indian side, what are the reasons for their reluctance, in your view?

[Michael Keenan]

Thank you for the question.

This is all with respect to the air transport agreement between Canada and India. It has been a shared interest of both Canada and India to increase direct flight connections. Both countries have been pleased to see an increase in direct flight connections between our two countries so that people with connections can get back and forth much more easily. That's very positive.

A very significant step was taken recently when Mr. Alghabra signed the new air transport agreement with his Indian counterpart. That took off a quantitative limit on the number of flights. That allows Air India, Air Canada, WestJet or whoever is flying to plan, to increase frequency as much as they see fit in the market.

Despite that significant advance, there are restrictions in the air transport agreement about what airports they can fly out of. Canada is prepared and has made it clear to our Indian colleagues and partners that we would be pleased to further amend the air transport agreement to remove or lessen those restrictions.

We will continue to engage our good partners, and we're optimistic that at some point we'll reach an agreement and the Indians will be prepared to work with us on a further amendment of the ATA to strengthen our air transport relationship to allow more city pairs, including the ones you've mentioned.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you for that answer.

I'll turn this over to Mr. Badawey.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chahal.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Earlier, the minister mentioned the investments that are being made within indigenous communities and that I assume would be transportation related. That said, one of the things we're trying to work on right now is that a lot of the capital investments that are needed within many of these communities need to be brought more toward a whole-of-government approach. It's not just one department over another department: it's actually all departments that would be relevant and therefore a whole-of-government approach.

Mr. Keenan, I would ask that you speak on that, on moving forward more progressively with a whole-of-government approach for all capital investments, regardless of what jurisdiction they may enter into throughout this country. Secondly, can you be more specific about some of those indigenous communities and the capital transportation investments that in fact may be planned for those communities?

[Michael Keenan]

I'd be happy to, Chair.

The member raises a very important question. It has been a top priority of the minister and Transport Canada to strengthen partnerships with indigenous peoples. There are many nations that are in a place where they are really important partners in the transportation system, and we have been working to find solutions to include them as partners in the management of the systems: for example, bringing indigenous partners into the emergency spill response system in the marine response and building out the transportation system.

We've seen that with the FNTI, the First Nations Technical Institute flight training school, which I think is around Belleville. We've seen that with the partnerships with the Arctic Gateway Group, the indigenous-led partnership running the railway in northern Manitoba.

We do run into the exact problem you've identified, so we've been trying to work it through on I wouldn't say a case-by-case basis but a project-by-project basis and bringing together the federal partners, because we can be a little complicated for counterparties. I think we've done that with PrairiesCan, where Indigenous Services Canada and Transport have come together in northern Manitoba.

We do need to find a better way. I think the member is right. We'll keep searching for that to create that single window where an indigenous partner can come to us and we can find the right terms to build the transportation system together.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

That said, and what I think is equally as important, with the alignment of the initial capital investment, how important does the department feel it is—again, with a whole-of-government approach—to follow that up with a proper asset management plan? That's so the life cycle of those assets and repair and maintenance over time are being looked after sustainably, and then, when that asset finally has to be replaced 10, 20 or 30 years down the road, depending on the asset, the funding will actually be in place to actually replace the asset.

[Michael Keenan]

Again, I think you raise a very good point, and it's one where, in our funding programs and our partnership programs, we don't always allow for or fully consider those life-cycle dynamics. We're certainly trying to push more towards being partners with indigenous groups on sustainable business plans, because often we're there for the expansion of the capital but not the maintenance of the capital or the operating. We're trying to find a better balance. There is more work to do in that respect.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Keenan.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Keenan.

Thank you, Mr. Badawey.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Earlier, in his opening remarks, Mr. Alghabra spoke about the importance to him of this much talked about high-speed rail project and the fact that he was firmly committed to it. It is obviously an initiative that we on this side also support.

However, I have had an opportunity to meet with a number of people who said they were concerned that so far they had not seen any indication or intention on the part of the government to have part of it built in Canada. In fact, I have had the opportunity to meet with representatives of companies who said they were afraid that some Chinese giant would get the contract, given that there is an extremely large train building company working in China, in particular. We really are talking about essential infrastructure here. There are jobs where we live that depend on manufacturing these control systems and local companies that could do the work.

How does the government see this project working? What is the government planning for the future?

[Michael Keenan]

We are moving ahead with the project, one step at a time. We are starting by communicating with the industry. We have a good response rate. As the minister said, about 50 organizations responded to the invitation.

To ensure the success of the project, we need to rely on global experience, but also on the right Canadian skills. We believe the procurement process will enable us to get both.

Mr. Robitaille, could you provide more details about these questions?

[Vincent Robitaille, Assistant Deputy Minister, High Frequency Rail, Department of Transport]

Yes, thank you.

The nature of the project requires that there be a partnership between Canadian expertise and international expertise. However, I want to reassure you on the question of security. The foreign investors will be subject to security standards and the necessary reviews. They will be audited. Security clearances and bilateral security agreements will be required. Given this, suppliers from certain countries may not necessarily be eligible.

In the case of this project, we are talking about an infrastructure that extends for 1,000 kilometres, to be built in Canada by Canadian workers, that will then be operated and managed by Canadian workers. There will be substantial economic benefits at all levels, both from the construction of the project and the operation of the train and from the use of the service by Canadians over the coming years.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you. I think that is important. If billions of dollars are being invested in a project, we want there to be benefits here at home, particularly when it comes to job creation. We must not forget that we have expertise right here, so we have to continue to build that expertise rather than exporting it and ultimately losing it, if we allow other countries that have different and very aggressive business practices to undermine our capacity to carry out other projects of this nature in future.

I don't know whether you have heard of the streetcar project in Gatineau. We have met with people, including representatives of the "S'allier pour le tramway" coalition, who advocate having a streetcar that would leave from Gatineau and go to downtown Ottawa. Unfortunately, there seems to be a problem relating to the existing federal programs. They say there seems to be a lack of flexibility or of the will to find solutions.

I thought that maybe you had the will to have this project succeed. A structuring project like that, which would connect Quebec to Ottawa, would be beneficial for Parliament and Canada's capital. Public servants would be able to use public transit rather than their cars. Unfortunately, because it is an interprovincial project, there has to be participation on the other side of the bridge, and not just on the Quebec side.

Are there people studying this possibility, or are you going to just say that it's a Quebec project and therefore it is up to Quebec to fund the entire project? Since a portion of the project is not in Quebec, investment that was in proportion to the benefits each side would get from it would be expected.

[Michael Keenan]

I am aware of the project. I can tell you that in general, the Department of Transport supports and encourages public transit projects. However, this issue is handled by our colleagues at Infrastructure Canada. I apologize, but I don't know all the details of it. I will be happy to ask my colleague to send you a detailed answer.