Transport Committee on Jan. 12th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 47 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, February 3, 2022, the committee is meeting to discuss the Air Passenger Protection Regulations.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of Thursday, June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I wish to inform committee members that all witnesses have been sound tested for the benefit of our translators and have passed the test.

We have with us today, for the first half of our meeting, the Honourable Omar Alghabra, Minister of Transport, and department officials Dominic Rochon, acting deputy minister; Craig Hutton, associate assistant deputy minister, policy; and Nicholas Robinson, associate assistant deputy minister, safety and security.

Minister, thank you, as always, for accepting this committee's invitation to appear before us.

With that, to get things started, I'll turn it over to you for your five-minute opening remarks.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for inviting me to speak with you and the honourable members on this important issue.

I'm joined today by representatives from Transport Canada: Dominic Rochon, acting deputy minister; Nicholas Robinson, associate assistant deputy minister, safety and security; Craig Hutton, associate assistant deputy minister, policy; and Colin Stacey, director general, air policy.

I want to thank the Liberal members of this committee who called for this emergency meeting. Canadians deserve answers about what happened during this Christmas travel season. I welcome the chance to provide information and answer your questions.

Canadians understand that bad weather may disrupt air travel. However, they expect and deserve to be kept informed about alternative plans and be compensated when their rights are violated. Unfortunately, the circumstances faced by many travellers this holiday season were completely unacceptable.

I was incredibly concerned and frustrated to hear about those who were stranded or delayed, or who missed their holiday plans, due to horrible travel conditions. The safety and efficiency of Canada's aviation sector is a priority of mine. Upholding the rights of passengers is also a priority of mine. Supporting a competitive and resilient sector is a priority of mine.

During the acute phase of COVID, the sector faced very difficult conditions. Our government was there to support the sector and protect its jobs. As we were recovering from that acute phase, we saw a challenging period when the entire system showed some weakness in coping with the surge in demand. We worked closely with the sector to respond to those challenges and made quick adjustments to address bottlenecks.

Last fall I brought together industry leaders, including airlines, airports and unions. I stressed the importance of avoiding what we saw during the summer and discussed steps on how to further strengthen our sector.

For the most part, we've made progress.

For example, throughout the holidays we didn't see the long queues that we saw last summer at CATSA and CBSA screening lines. We took action to ensure that passengers weren't delayed, but we still have more to do; of course we do.

In terms of the air passenger protection regulations, we were the first government in Canadian history to put this in place—in 2019, just a few months before the pandemic started.

Naturally, the pandemic exposed weaknesses in the bill of rights. That is why last September we reinforced the regulations by requiring that travellers be entitled to reimbursement for situations beyond the control of the airlines.

Are there further opportunities to improve the rules? Yes. This is why, long before the events of the holiday season, we were working to strengthen passenger rights.

We are working on improvements to the Air Passenger Protection Regulations.

The burden of proof should be shifted from the passenger to the airlines. Currently, passengers are too often told by the airlines that they are not entitled to compensation when they really are. This situation has generated an avalanche of complaints to the Canadian Transportation Agency since last summer. We will, of course, continue to put the necessary resources into the CTA so that it can fulfill its mandate, but we will also make other changes to the regulations to improve their efficiency. I hope to be able to announce changes and introduce legislation in the coming months.

As far as VIA Rail is concerned, several elements came together to explain what happened—a CN derailment, snowstorms and highway closures. I can't even imagine the stress and fear that people must have felt at being stuck on the train for hours with little communication. There are no words strong enough to express how frustrated I was about the situation. I spoke to VIA Rail directly, and we will continue to have discussions on this.

Emergency protocols clearly need to be reviewed. A full examination of what happened is taking place. We will take action accordingly.

In conclusion, I want to tell you that the government is not hiding. We are going to assume our responsibilities, and those in the industry must assume theirs.

We will continue to work together to ensure that this never happens again.

Lastly, I would like to use this opportunity to thank all the employees in the Canadian transportation sector who worked hard over the holiday period to ensure that Canadians could make their way home or visit their friends and families.

Mr. Chair, that concludes my opening remarks. I'll be happy to answer any questions that you or my colleagues may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We will begin our line of questioning today with Ms. Lantsman.

Ms. Lantsman, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thanks for accepting the invitation.

We've heard a lot of testimony throughout the day. We've seen and heard first-hand stories of cancelled Christmases, delays, sleeping on airport floors and being shuffled from hotel lobby to hotel lobby in a foreign country.

Your government has been in power for seven years, and you have been Minister of Transport since the beginning of 2021. You oversaw the chaos this summer leading to Canadian airports being ranked the worst in the world—in both the number one and number two spots—and on November 17 you blamed airport staff shortages for the chaos during the summer and claimed to have solved the problem.

You had a summit, but, as we heard from witnesses today, provided no policy directives, per the airlines' testimony. Worse, passenger protections put in place by the government have failed to protect passengers, consumers or anyone in this country who was stuck elsewhere, or stuck on the tarmac for well over 12 hours in some cases. A Canadian who flies British Airways to the U.K. is better protected than one who flies WestJet to the U.K., and that remains a fact under these passenger protections.

Minister, you yourself are responsible and have the tools to fix it. The question is why you waited so long: why you waited from the first time you heard about Sunwing, presumably when the rest of the country did, on September 19; why you waited until January 5; and why you didn't speak to the airports, as we've heard, while Canadians were stranded again on tarmacs, in some cases in Vancouver for 12 hours.

I have a few questions.

The Canada Transportation Act permits cabinet, on your recommendation, orders to stabilize the national transportation system in an event of “extraordinary disruption”. We all agree that the Sunwing situation was an extraordinary disruption, and you didn't recommend to cabinet to make an order under section 47 in connection with Sunwing.

I ask, why not, and what was more important? What had you preoccupied?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

I want to welcome Ms. Lantsman back to this committee.

There is so much in her remarks that deserves to be unpacked. I understand the political interest in conflating what happened last summer with what happened this Christmas. I think Canadians understand that they are two separate situations.

Having said that, our government and I personally have been very proactive since the summer. She talked about the summit I held, which was not the only thing done from the summer until now. She talked about communications with Sunwing. I can assure her and all my colleagues that, first of all, I have been briefed regularly and daily—in fact, sometimes hourly— on what's happening. My officials and my office have been in touch with Sunwing daily, and sometimes more than once a day, to ensure that we get updated and that we remind Sunwing of their obligations towards their customers and to Canadians.

Mr. Chair, when I was here on December 5, just over a month ago, committee members were asking me what lessons we had learned from the summer. I was glad to share our work plan. I did talk about the plan to improve the passenger bill of rights. I talked about the plan to modernize security screening. I talked about our plan to improve the authorities that airports have, and I talked about improving the authorities and the tools that the Canadian Transportation Agency needs. This is ongoing work. It is extremely serious, and we've been proactive.

I wish that when the Conservatives were in power, they had implemented a passenger bill of rights, because today we would have been in a much better position to improve and enhance the rules. We are where we are. As I said in my opening remarks, the government accepts its responsibility and is working to ensure that lessons learned will be benefited from and passengers' rights protected. However, it's important to remind Canadians that we have rights for passengers. In fact, Sunwing violated those rights, so the issue is not only that we didn't have rules.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Mr. Chair, I think we should take equal time—

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

The issue is that some private operators also did not uphold their obligations.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Minister, I appreciate the answer, and I think we should take equal time to ask and to answer.

Since you didn't use the section that would allow for orders to stabilize the network, there's another section in the act—section 49—that gives you the power to “direct” the Canadian Transportation Agency to conduct an inquiry into any matter related to the federal network. That's the agency we'll hear from—with 33,000 claims backlogged—which is responsible for some of these passenger protections under which passengers weren't in fact protected in this country.

I have a few more questions.

Did you direct the CTA to conduct an inquiry into Sunwing and the flight delays, the cancellations and the tarmac delays? If not, why not?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, and for Ms. Lantsman, the way we set it up in our system is that the CTA is an arm's-length quasi-judicial body that is delegated or empowered to uphold and enforce the rules. The reason we set it up that way is to avoid the appearance of political interference in investigation, in fining and in holding the responsible parties accountable. That idea has served Canadians well to ensure that there is independence and no political interference.

Having said all of that, I have been working with the chair of the CTA since my appointment as minister, but particularly since the summer. I made it clear that I expect the rules to be upheld and I expect the CTA to identify ways to improve the efficiency of managing its backlog. I also am committed to working with the CTA to provide the resources it needs and to help improve the efficiency of processing complaints.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Minister, it's your responsibility—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Minister, and thank you very much, Ms. Lantsman.

Next we have Mr. Sorbara.

Mr. Sorbara, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and welcome, Minister.

Minister, as we know, Canadians need or want to travel at certain times of the year, to visit their families or go on a vacation. Geographically, we live in a big country, so aviation is our principal mode of transportation.

We also know that we've come out of two years of the pandemic, and the air sector, the aviation sector, was probably the worst-hit sector, not only here in Canada but around the globe. It has gotten back on its feet and is incrementally moving forward. There are some bumps along the way, which we see here as well as in the United States, with what happened with Southwest Airlines last week.

Our government, prior to COVID, was acting, including with the air passenger bill of rights and by introducing air passenger protections—unlike the previous government, which was in power for 11 years, did not take any action to protect consumers at all, and left it in the hands of private corporations—and I very much applaud this.

My first question for you, Minister, is with regard to the potential changes that may come in strengthening the air passenger protections that are in place. Will there be opportunities for Canadians to weigh in on those proposed changes?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Sorbara, for being here and for your questions.

Let me first echo what you said. You're right: We saw not only in Canada but across the world some challenges in the aviation sector with the recovery from the acute phase of COVID. We saw disruptions around the world—in the United States, in Europe and certainly in Canada—but we've taken action. We've taken steps to ensure that we've learned from those lessons and that as a government we provided the support that is needed, including enhancing the bill of rights for passengers.

To directly answer your question, right now I am currently consulting internally within Transport Canada and externally with our partners, and I know this committee held hearings in November about the passenger bill of rights. I'm sure you're going to come up with recommendations based on this study, so I will be welcoming the recommendations of the committee.

Once we have a draft proposal, we are going to table it in the House of Commons. Canadians and other stakeholders will be able to offer input. I am regularly receiving input from Canadians, and that is being taken into account in the drafting of the proposals.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

This morning, we heard a mea culpa. We heard an apology from Sunwing in terms of its actions—or, I would say, lack of actions—during the Christmas period. Also, it was great to see the further strengthening of the air passenger bill of rights, which I think is the right path.

Minister, as we know, the travel system here in Canada is private. The entities that operate, such as the airlines, are private entities for the most part, but there are federal agencies that play very significant and critical roles, such as CATSA and CBSA. From your angle and from the data we've seen, how do these organizations perform over a peak season, i.e., the Christmas travel season?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair and Mr. Sorbara, I think it's really important to highlight this point, because there are some people who are trying to conflate what happened in the summer with what happened this Christmas.

We learned a lot from what happened in the summer. I am grateful to everyone who works in the industry who benefited from that unfortunate period.

What we saw in the summer was that almost every element of the aviation sector, including CATSA and CBSA, showed some weaknesses and challenges. There was no evidence this time around, with the Christmas weather disruptions, that any of those government agencies had any failures. In fact, let me give you an example.

CATSA had a great plan to address the extreme weather. It actually reserved hotel rooms near the airport for its employees, because it knew that if they went back home, they might be stuck on the road and might not be able to come back. That's an example of tremendous visionary leadership by CATSA to ensure that it would have the resources necessary. We didn't see any evidence of long lineups at CATSA or CBSA.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Minister, with regard to the air passenger protections that are currently in place, that Canadians know about and are informed about, and in terms of how that legislation has been enacted and is operating and the changes that you put in place in September, first can you describe those changes and how they've strengthened the system to date?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Sure. It's important to first remind Canadians that the first version of the bill came into force a few months before the pandemic. Then the pandemic hit, and we realized that the airlines were not obligated to refund passengers for cancellations outside of the airlines' control, so we made changes to require airlines to refund passengers if a flight was cancelled, even for reasons outside the control of the airline. Those included even bad weather or a pandemic.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

This was very important, because during the pandemic individuals had to wait more than 30 days. Now the requirement is, if I understand it correctly, that if there's a cancellation, even if it's not a force majeure event, the airlines are responsible for getting a refund to the consumer within 30 days.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

That is correct. Passengers are not on the hook for a flight that is cancelled, even if it is due to weather or a pandemic.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sorbara, and thank you very much, Minister.

Ms. Vignola, you now have the floor for six minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for being with us. I also thank the officials who are with you.

On August 19, you came to this committee to testify about the messy disruption that occurred over the summer. We have already talked about that. It had nothing to do with the storms we had in December, we understand that.

Here you are again before this committee. From your level and perspective, what is the reason for the continued disruptions? We understand that these are two separate situations, but the disruptions continue nevertheless.

Should the Air Passenger Protection Regulations be strengthened to give them more teeth? Is this one of the possible causes of this situation?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Vignola.

First of all, thank you for repeating the fact that they were two different situations.

Canadians are used to the fact that we live in Canada and occasionally have extreme weather events that disrupt our travel plans. Canadians are patient when it comes to these things.

What is unacceptable to them and to me is being kept in the dark about what alternative plans are being provided, or being left stranded for days on end without any information. That was unacceptable. Today Sunwing acknowledged that it had made a mistake.

Having said that, I will answer your questions.

Yes, there are opportunities to strengthen the passengers' bill of rights. I said this in my committee appearance on December 5, and I will repeat it now, and I will assure you that I and the department are currently working on these rules.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

One of the suggestions I was given for improvements to the regulations, particularly in relation to penalties, concerned the maximum amount of those penalties. Here in Canada, for a corporation, the penalties range from $5,000 to $25,000, depending on the schedule. In the United States, the maximum is $400,000.

Are there any plans to increase the Canadian penalties to truly deter companies from not complying with the regulations? Are the current amounts a sufficient deterrent?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, we are looking at the issue of fines. If there's an opportunity to increase the fines or to enhance the rules, I welcome this committee's suggestion.

Let me assure you that if you compare our overall regime to the U.S. regime, any independent observer will tell you that the Canadian system is stronger. That doesn't mean we can't learn from the U.S. and European models. We're looking at different aspects, and I welcome the committee's suggestions as to how else we can make them stronger.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

In Europe, a carrier cannot use safety reasons to deny compensation. Regardless of whether the situation is created by an event within or outside the control of the carrier, the carrier must offer support and some form of compensation.

Are you considering amending the Canadian regulations so that they better protect air passengers and are closer to the measures in place in Europe?