Transport Committee on Jan. 12th, 2023

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Yes. As I said, we are looking at almost every aspect of the regulations with respect to how we can further enhance and strengthen them.

Let me just be very clear, by the way. You're right: There are occasions, and I've heard of occasions, on which the airline has used the justification of safety to cancel flights and to avoid compensating passengers. There was a judgment by the Canadian Transportation Agency recently, I think just this summer or fall, that airlines could not use labour shortage as a justification for cancelling for safety reasons. Therefore, the airlines are responsible for those cancellations, even though they may have used the justification of safety for them.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, as this is a weakness it would be very timely to correct.

As you have noticed, my questions are always in solution mode.

According to passenger advocacy groups that have appeared before us, the victims of the situation, that is to say passengers, have to prove that they are entitled to compensation and that what the airline has claimed is false. This makes no sense.

In the context of your studies and thinking, is there any possibility of shifting the burden of proof from the air passenger to the carrier?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Again, I want to thank you for focusing on constructive solutions.

My answer is—and in fact I mentioned it in my opening remarks—that we are looking at ensuring that more of the burden is on the airline, not on the passenger. The truth of the matter is that the burden has always been on the airline. However, it's clear that there is room to further improve and clarify these rules, so that is precisely what we're looking at.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Ms. Vignola.

Thank you very much, Minister.

Next we have Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Bachrach the floor is yours. You have six minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister, for accepting our invitation to be here today.

We're all here because Canadians are frustrated. They're angry, they're dismayed and they feel betrayed. In the travel period of last summer and the most recent holiday travel period, we saw the big airlines walk all over any semblance of passenger rights in this country. We now have a backlog of 33,000 complaints before the CTA, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. We know that only a small fraction of passengers managed to jump through all the hoops you've created for them to get to their complaint process. The big airlines are acting this way because they can get away with it—because you let them.

My first question for you is this: Why have you not stood up to the airlines on behalf of air passengers?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Through the chair, Mr. Bachrach, I appreciate your question. I am here also, equally, because I know that Canadians are frustrated. I am frustrated, and I believe this committee is able to provide information and answers for Canadians and to keep the pressure on the sector, including on government, to make sure we do everything we can to protect passengers' rights.

Let's be clear: It is the responsibility of the airlines to uphold passengers' rights. Airlines, when they violate the rules, need to be held accountable for that. They need to compensate their passengers. They need to compensate their customers for what their customers paid them to do. We need to avoid, in fact, going to the CTA for passengers to receive the compensation they deserve.

We set up a framework that had never existed in Canada's history before 2019, because we saw the vacuum that existed. The 2019 rules came into force before the pandemic. The pandemic exposed certain weaknesses. We strengthened them. We are now looking at additional ways to strengthen the rules.

Let's be clear: The airlines must continue to uphold passengers' rights, and when they violate them, they need to compensate their customers.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Minister, I would argue that it's also the government's responsibility to uphold passenger rights. Unfortunately, the air passenger protection regime that you've created has massive loopholes in it. You could fly a 747 through these things. We see airlines clearly exploiting those loopholes in order to avoid paying passengers the compensation they're due.

It is positive to hear that you're once again going to go into the protection regulations and make some changes. My question is whether you'll commit to this committee that when those changes are done, Canada's legislation and regulations will be up to the standards set by the European Union, which are considered the gold standard for air passenger protection around the world.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair and Mr. Bachrach, I know this committee held hearings in November on the passenger bill of rights. I know you've had expert witnesses tell you that the regime is quite strong. I know you've had experts tell you that it is much stronger than the U.S. regime. I know there are differences between our system and the European system.

We're looking—we have been looking and we will continue to look—at other jurisdictions around the world. I commit to you that we are learning from the lessons of the last year and that we are committed to clarifying, strengthening and simplifying rules. That is my commitment to you and to Canadians, but let there be no confusion: It was our government that understood that there was a vacuum there. We brought in the bill of rights. We studied and implemented rights that are way stronger than exist for our neighbours to the south. Any responsible government would learn and look for more opportunities to strengthen these rules, and that's precisely what we're doing.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

You said earlier that you haven't directed the CTA because of its arm's-length, quasi-judicial nature, and yet the Canada Transportation Act specifically sets out, in section 43, the power for you to provide policy direction to the CTA. Why have you never used that tool, despite all the challenges we've seen in this country?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Actually, that's not true, Mr. Bachrach. I have directed the CTA on several policy items. The question is about directing them on an investigation.

From a policy perspective, I have in mind a recent example. I sent a directive to the CTA about accessibility and about making sure that airlines in the sector have strong rules to accommodate their customers who have accessibility issues, so I have utilized that tool—on bilingualism too—and will continue to use it. The question was on a specific investigation, which is different from policy—

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

No, it wasn't on a specific investigation. It was on the topic of air passenger rights—for instance, the fact that the CTA has utterly failed to penalize the airlines at monetary amounts that are meaningful. The only fines we've seen total a little over $100,000. In the United States, the government has fined the big airlines over $7 million since the beginning of the pandemic.

Why does the government treat the airlines with kid gloves? Why hasn't it provided direction to the CTA to strengthen enforcement, so that the airlines stop trampling on air passenger rights?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Mr. Bachrach, I appreciate your passion on this. I share it. You had airlines today and on previous occasions tell you how the government is not treating them with kid gloves. We are not treating airlines with kid gloves. In fact, as I said, we're looking to further strengthen the rules to ensure that passengers are protected.

Let's be very clear: We have provided the CTA with the regulatory framework to uphold the law and to fine airlines that have been found in violation. Are there opportunities to strengthen these rules? I'm saying yes, and we're working on them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bachrach, and thank you, Minister.

Mr. Strahl, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's certainly interesting to see Liberal members here at the committee doing victory laps after we just experienced such a catastrophic travel season.

Minister, far from the opposition or the media conflating the summer and winter travel seasons, it was you—when you brought together industry players in November—who declared you were confident that Canadians could have confidence that there would not be the same issues plaguing the system that we saw in the summer. The travel chaos had been managed, because you held a summit. We've learned from both the airports and the airlines this morning that, in fact, you gave no policy direction at that summit. It appears to have simply been a public relations exercise, so that you could say you were doing something.

You indicated that the government should do everything in its power to protect passengers. We learned today. We asked the question. We asked the Vancouver Airport Authority, “Did the minister call you? Has the minister called you since the middle of December?” The answer was no.

We asked the Montreal airport authority, “Has the minister called you since the middle of December?” The answer was no.

We asked the Toronto airport authority, “Has the minister called you since the middle of December?” The answer was no.

Most shockingly, the airlines also indicated—especially Sunwing—that they did not hear from you directly until January 5, which was more than two weeks after the catastrophic failure of that airline, when people were sleeping in hotel lobbies in a foreign country.

You waited until the passengers had been returned to Canada. You waited until the crisis had passed before you did the basic thing of picking up the phone and contacting the entities that had failed Canadians.

Accountability starts at the top. I would argue that you are passing the buck. You have not engaged with the industry directly. You might have left it to your officials, but between Christmas and New Year's we needed to see action from you, and we didn't see it.

In the United States, we saw U.S. transportation secretary Pete Buttigieg pick up the phone. He had Southwest Airlines hauled onto the carpet within 24 hours of their failure, and you were nowhere for over two weeks.

Given that, why did it take you until January 5 to do your job and talk to Sunwing Airlines to demand answers for Canadian travellers?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Mr. Strahl, first of all, thank you for highlighting the work that was done during the summer by continually bringing the airlines and other players in the sector together to ensure that we were on the same page and that they understood the government's expectations of them. In fact, at that summit that was held in November, it was made very clear to participants that we wanted to do everything in our power to avoid what we saw in the summer. To a large degree, much of that was avoided.

Again, I won't deny that the extreme weather events caused significant disruptions. Combined with the rush of the Christmas holiday and bad decisions by operators, they ended up causing an unfortunate and frustrating delay, and frustrations for many passengers.

Second, I know you're not deliberately trying to mislead Canadians, because I know that the airlines and the airports clearly said to you that my office was in regular contact with airports and airlines—

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

I didn't ask them about your office. I asked them about you.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

—on a daily basis. I was involved and briefed daily.

By the way, the airlines and the airports were not confused about my instructions or my feelings about what was happening, or about my expectations. It is not uncommon that—typically, and especially on a daily basis—it's done through my office or done through Transport Canada—

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

What else were you doing, Minister? What else were you doing? Why weren't you calling them?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

I've been extremely involved on a regular basis. Airlines heard from us, maybe more than daily; maybe it was multiple times a day—

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Not from you.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

—so I can assure you....

The U.S., by the way, is set up differently from Canada. The Department of Transportation in the U.S. is the one that is responsible for enforcing their protections, while in Canada we set up the Canadian Transportation Agency to be at an arm's length. That's why there's a difference.

Having said that, I was personally involved on a daily basis—in fact, on an hourly basis—in what was happening. My directions were clearly communicated regularly to airlines and airports.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Minister, and thank you very much, Mr. Strahl.

Next we have Ms. Koutrakis.

The floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister, for accepting our invitation to appear before this committee once again, a short month after your last appearance here.

Our colleagues on the Conservative side are suggesting that you should have used emergency authorities to order airlines to take certain actions. I would argue—and I'll ask you, if I may—that it is a little rich for a party that talks about making the government smaller and less intrusive in getting gatekeepers out of the way to suggest that you micromanage the operations of private airlines.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

I think it is, actually. It's worth noting how a party that wants the government to get out of the way, and typically says so, is now expecting more government involvement in the private sector, almost to the degree of nationalizing our airlines.

Having said that, my focus is on doing the right thing and upholding passenger rights. I believe there is a role for government. I believe there is a role for the Canadian Transportation Agency. I will continue to do my job. I will continue to ensure that the Government of Canada plays its role and that the CTA has the tools it needs to uphold its role as well.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you.

I'm wondering if you can describe the actions that you and Transport Canada are contemplating to further strengthen passenger rights in Canada. I know you're saying that we're looking at that and the government will be doing that.

Where specifically do you see room for improvement?