Transport Committee on Jan. 12th, 2023

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

That's a great question.

They revolve around three principles. The first one is clarification. It's clear that there's an issue of confusion about some of the rules. For example, Ms. Vignola brought up the point of safety. We need to clarify the rules there.

The second point is simplification. We need to make sure that in the process of complaints, the onus is more on the airlines. We need to simplify the process.

Third is strengthening, which means, are there additional rules we can make? There is, again, a question about the fines. Should the fines be strengthened?

Those are the three principles we're looking at. We're looking to international jurisdictions to see what lessons can be learned from them.

Those are, basically, the objectives we're trying to achieve.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

I'm also curious to know, specifically, what role our committee can play to make sure that when we're going through the consultation process...how that consultation process can reflect our recommendations.

Do you have any suggested timelines that we should be considering while we're doing this work?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Koutrakis.

As I stated earlier, I know this committee held hearings in November on the passenger bill of rights. We had a meeting. I was here on December 5. At that time I invited committee members to propose changes. I'm repeating that invitation. The input of this committee is going to be very useful for our government as we proceed with improving the bill of rights.

There will also be another opportunity, once those proposals are tabled, for the committee to provide further evidence and further feedback.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

At the risk of sounding repetitive, I think it begs me to ask you the question once again.

Our opposition colleagues are claiming that you weren't proactive in pre-empting the holiday season's transportation problems, and that you tweeted only that these problems were unacceptable. We all know that's not the case. As your parliamentary secretary, I know that's not the case. I receive the same briefings that you do. I know first-hand how active and proactive you, your staff and Transport Canada have been throughout the whole process.

Can you outline the measures you and Transport Canada took before and during the holidays to ensure that travellers' rights were respected?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Koutrakis, and thank you, as my parliamentary secretary, for playing an important role in this period.

First of all, during the summer ordeal, I had the opportunity to speak with all airlines individually, to visit many of the airports—large, small and regional—and to benefit from their experience and insight. Then, last November, we hosted a summit that brought together the CEOs of airlines and airports, as well as representatives of unions, and we talked about action that was necessary moving forward.

Just before Christmas we also stood up a working group that involved airports, airlines and government agencies in preparation for the Christmas season, to make sure all the focus was on preparing for the Christmas rush. We all know Christmas is one of the busiest times of the year, so we did a lot of preparatory work. Unfortunately, the storm happened and caused extreme disruption, and we also ended up seeing unfortunate decisions made by an airline operator that caused many of the—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Minister, and thank you very much, Ms. Koutrakis.

Ms. Vignola, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, some of my colleagues came back to the issue of the role of the Canadian Transportation Agency in relation to the tens of thousands of complaints waiting to be processed.

While I am aware of the agency's independence from your department, what can be done at your level to give the agency all the tools it needs to diligently process the complaints it receives?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Yes, there are things that the federal government can do. First we need to identify how we can simplify the rules that govern how the CTA deals with complaints. Are there opportunities to reduce red tape to increase efficiencies in handling complaints?

Second, we need to clarify the rules with the airlines and have the burden on the airlines, to incentivize them to resolve these matters before the complaints go to the CTA.

Third, I'm currently working with the CTA and its chair on what additional resources they need to be able to manage that load.

Thank you.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

Do you already know when you'd like to implement all the changes you've mentioned lately? Would it be before the spring or summer holidays? You would need to make sure that in peak periods these situations are addressed.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

My plan is to table those proposals during the spring session. Some work still needs to be done. The work started before Christmas, but the plan that I'm aiming for will be during the spring session, yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Ms. Vignola.

Next we have Mr. Bachrach.

The floor is yours, Mr. Bachrach. You have two and a half minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, you said one of the areas you're looking at is strengthening the fines that are possible under the air passenger protection regulations and the Canada Transportation Act. Right now, fines of up to $25,000 per passenger are possible under existing legislation, yet the only time we've seen the CTA issue fines against airlines under the APPR, we saw fines of about $200 per passenger.

Why didn't you use your ability under the Canada Transportation Act to order the CTA to increase its fines and strengthen its enforcement to act as a deterrent? I'm sure you'll agree with me that $200 isn't enough.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Mr. Bachrach, you just acknowledged that the CTA has the authority to impose a fine of up to $25,000 per passenger. The CTA has that authority. Please forgive me for avoiding looking like I am interfering in the independence of the CTA. My expectation is that the rules will be enforced and that passengers' rights will be upheld. I know that the CTA is coming here, so that would be an interesting question for the CTA.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Minister, when you have companies worth hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars, what is the purpose of a fine of $200 per passenger? What's the goal of these administrative monetary penalties? It seems comical, frankly.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Mr. Bachrach, I'll repeat that we provide the CTA with authorities to impose significant fines. We leave it to the discretion of a quasi-judicial independent body to decide, based on the facts before them, what type of fines they impose. I think the CTA is capable of explaining how it comes up with its decision; however, the government provides authority to the CTA to impose significant fines. As I just said, we are looking to see if there's an opportunity to increase those fines.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Will you commit to amending the legislation the APPR is built on, and not simply changing the regulations themselves?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

We are in the process of examining how we strengthen the rules, and if part of that strengthening of rules requires legislative changes, then yes, we will make the necessary legislative changes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Will you commit to closing the loophole in the Canada Transportation Act, section 86.11?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Mr. Bachrach, as I've been spending the hour here telling you, we're looking to strengthen the rules and learn from lessons of the past. The commitment I am making to all of you is not only to pursue those things but also to take your input into consideration as we are examining what additional tools to introduce.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'll be happy to provide it.

This is my last question.

When you spoke with Sunwing, did you encourage them to proactively pay customers the compensation they are due under the air passenger protection regulations, instead of making them file a complaint and stand in line for 18 months to get a ruling from the CTA?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Yes. In fact, the president of Sunwing Airlines promised that's what they're doing.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

He said that they are going to proactively award compensation—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Excuse me.

Mr. Bachrach and Minister, I appreciate it.

The final two sessions will be three minutes each.

Mr. Berthold, you have the floor for three minutes.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, where were you between December 23 and January 5 last year?

Canadians slept on airport floors. They waited for hours on planes, some in foreign countries, with no word. You keep saying the situation was unacceptable, but you didn't think it was serious enough for you, as Minister of Transport, to intervene.

You could have shown the leadership that Canadians expect from a minister. You could have picked up the phone and called the airlines and airports. You didn't even think the crisis was important enough, despite all the tweets you wrote, to agree to spend two hours of your time answering questions from committee members today.

Minister, do you intend to do as Sunwing has done, admit your wrongs and apologize to Canadians for your lack of leadership between December 23 and January 5?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Mr. Berthold, what do you want me to be responsible for—the weather or Sunwing's bad decisions?

I've been personally involved, even on Christmas Day and Boxing Day. On a regular basis I have been informed and briefed on what was happening, and I have provided direction. My office has been in touch with airlines and airports daily, and sometimes more than once a day. As you said, I've also issued public statements expressing my frustration with what was happening. I was personally involved on a daily basis in what was happening, including during the Christmas holidays. None of the airlines, including Sunwing, was clueless as to my feelings and my expectations with respect to what was happening.