Evidence of meeting #56 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was services.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Chahal.
Thank you, Dr. Jaffe.
I now give the floor to Mr. Barsalou‑Duval for six minutes.
11:45 a.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Good morning to all the witnesses, I'm glad to have you with us today for this study.
Mr. Maheux, from the Fédération des transporteurs par autobus, the Bus Carriers Federation, you mentioned in your statement the fact that you seem to be having difficulty finding the clientele that was there before. This is not only the case for your company, but also for others elsewhere. It seems that post-pandemic volumes are not at the same level as they were before and that it takes a long time to recover the client base.
Firstly, do you expect this recovery to take place? Secondly, do you believe that the clients you lost have simply stopped travelling, or have instead switched to other means of transport?
11:45 a.m.
Administrator, Bus Carriers Federation
To my knowledge and subject to reservations, because I must always maintain a certain humility even if I am supposed to have become an expert over the years, the current non-return of a good part of the clientele can be attributed essentially to telecommuting, especially for the shorter distances. I'm thinking, for example, of my colleague who does the Montreal-Sherbrooke route.
For longer distances, I think that transport costs are also an important element and a brake. We are facing a very significant increase in these costs. In intercity transport, which is provided by private companies as opposed to public transport services, the customer pays the full costs plus, in principle, a profit margin. By comparison, customer revenues in urban and suburban transport networks are only 35%, 45% or 55% of operating costs.
This leads to aberrations. When a bus operated by a company under contract with a public transit company leaves Joliette or Sainte-Julie for Montreal, the customer will pay five or seven dollars for his or her “urban” ticket, while for the same distance, the customer would have to pay $25 or $30 to a private intercity transport company. Yet, in our rural areas, the rider would normally be entitled to that same trip for a similar cost, which might encourage them to take the bus, allowing them to go to the city, not only for cancer treatment, but also for pleasure, to visit family and to go shopping.
As I said earlier, there is a double standard for people living near major urban centres, and those living in sparsely populated or more remote settings.
Speaking of distance and isolated places, I just heard Ms. Perry talk about indigenous people and Ms. Jaffe describe the situation in Saskatchewan. In 2016, we launched a new service to the village of Chisasibi, near the shores of James Bay, from Val d'Or, a journey of almost 1,000 kilometres. Along the way, we do pass through Amos and Matagami, but we also stop in the communities of Némiskau, Eastmain, Wemindji and Waskaganish. Why do we do it?
It's not because the federal government is helping us, but because the indigenous communities and the Grand Council of the Crees decided to put money in to benefit from the Quebec Programme d'aide au développement du transport collectif, which allows us to use this money to reduce our operating costs as a carrier.
There is no doubt that the private sector is the solution to intercity transport operations, which Mr. Roberts will be pleased to hear me say. Earlier, Mr. Strahl was talking about turning all this into a public transportation company. The Saskatchewan Transportation Company had to close because its operating costs per kilometre travelled, which were double ours, had become too high. This closure had caught my attention.
I agree that service should be provided, but there are limits to creating public transport companies that cannot maintain reasonable operating costs while ensuring adequate working conditions, safety, vehicle maintenance and compliance with all rules. In intercity transport, therefore, it is clear that the private sector is the solution. As for rural areas, I will take the example of our line between Val-d'Or and Chisasibi. Ms. Jaffe rightly pointed out the whole issue of transporting parcels, goods and equipment for various services, which take up a large part of our luggage bays on that line.
There are other small steps that could be taken as well. I can mention them if, by chance, I am asked a question about them.
11:50 a.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
My time is almost up, but I will ask you a short question.
What federal financial support is currently available to private carriers?
11:50 a.m.
Administrator, Bus Carriers Federation
To my knowledge, the federal government does not provide any direct financial assistance to operations, unlike the provincial government.
Mr. Côté's suggestion to modify the Rural Transit Solutions Fund...
11:55 a.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Is there anything in terms of infrastructure?
11:55 a.m.
Administrator, Bus Carriers Federation
Since 2018, the Government of Canada has introduced several accelerated capital cost allowance measures, which are not specifically focused on transportation, but which we use extensively. Also, since 2021, our acquisitions can be part of our expenses, up to $1.5 million. That certainly helps us.
If I may, I would now like to make some suggestions to help communities and users.
11:55 a.m.
Administrator, Bus Carriers Federation
You must hear my proposals, Mr. Chair.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Yes, we want to hear them, and Mr. Barsalou‑Duval will soon have the floor again for two and a half minutes. You can certainly take the opportunity to tell us about them at that time.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much.
Next we have Mr. Bachrach.
Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to our witnesses. This has been some great testimony.
I represent a very rural part of Canada, dominated by very small communities, many of them remote. Dr. Jaffe, what you said about rural equity really hit home and is a dominant theme in the region I represent. I'd like to start with some questions for you.
I'd like you to imagine that you're the federal transport minister, knowing what you do about the need for rural equity and the importance of rural communities in the fabric of our country. What would you do when it comes to the need for bus transportation? What federal approach would you take, as minister?
11:55 a.m.
Professor, Department of Sociology and Social Studies, University of Regina, As an Individual
Oh, man—you don't give me the easy question. Yes, that is a tough question.
There are some things that I think we need to consider. There are a few principles we want to remember, to begin with, including the issues around the fact that this transportation policy does impact all these other policies and that transportation also facilitates many other activities and programs and policies in rural places.
One thing to understand is that the cost of transport is also a cost that can be attributed across these other activities. I think we also want to remember that other kinds of activities receive certain kinds of subsidies. We've talked about automobility today. We've talked about the way that systems of transportation have developed so that they really favour the automobile and they favour trucks. They essentially externalize the costs of automobiles and trucks onto the general public. Their costs are actually higher than they appear to be. I think I would start by keeping those two things in mind.
Then I would also understand that there are many kinds of creative solutions that one can engage in at this point and that one can take advantage of—for example, new technologies. One can be thinking, in some ways, about developing systems of transportation so that one can take advantage of things that are happening in other places and piggyback on systems that are already in place.
Also, I think one important thing is that we need to start to change what it means to ride the bus and what it means to use public transportation, and particularly in rural areas—and this is taking this in a direction that perhaps is a little bit less expected. That includes paying attention to the marketing aspects of transportation and also thinking about the services that are available and the extent to which people are able to rely upon the bus. The gentleman from Newfoundland who was talking about being able to offer the bus more frequently, I think, is really thinking about this in the right way. We know that when people have more access to public transportation and it's quite reliable and they know that it's there and that it's safe, they tend to use it more.
On the other hand, I think one thing we tend to do, as we heard in speaking about Saskatchewan here, is that as costs go up, we tend to retract services, which means that people use them less. What we need to do is start thinking about the expansion of service and then what people are looking for in these services, and as Dr. Perry was talking about, start looking at the different users and potential users of services and the needs they have in order to use these services so that we are responding to the actual needs that people are expressing.
That's where I would start.
Noon
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Dr. Jaffe.
I'm interested in a few aspects of what you said. One of the themes that have dominated this study on bus transport is the question of the best model to pursue nationally, whether that's a purely public model, a purely private model, or some sort of hybrid in between. You've advocated a public approach to bus transport quite strongly.
Can you talk briefly about why you advocate that approach?
Noon
Professor, Department of Sociology and Social Studies, University of Regina, As an Individual
I advocate that approach for several reasons.
One reason is that we tend to see, in many places.... Dr. Perry alluded to this. You look one day, and these services are available. Then, another day, they're not available. Private operators must respond to conditions of private profitability. This is no criticism of them. It is simply the reality of participating in a capitalist market. You have to respond to private profitability, and generally speaking, you're looking for a lower cost.
We can use STC as an example. This was a service that—yes, it's true—operated at a higher cost, perhaps, than in the private sector, but it also had very good conditions of work. It had union labour. A very high proportion of its workers were of indigenous status or people with disabilities and so on. It had many women working in management. It was using a multiple evaluation, called a balanced scorecard, in order to make sure it was satisfying multiple sets of objectives—not just moving people from place to place, but doing so in such a way that they were satisfied and it was meeting environmental objectives and a whole variety of things.
Noon
Professor, Department of Sociology and Social Studies, University of Regina, As an Individual
I'm sorry. I'm running out of time. I'm a professor. I talk too much.
Noon
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Dr. Jaffe.
Mr. Bachrach will have another round, so perhaps he'll want to continue along that line of questioning.
Next we have Mr. Muys. Mr. Muys, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.
Noon
Conservative
Dan Muys Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses for their perspectives today.
I'd like to ask this of Mr. Roberts.
You mentioned—hopefully I heard this correctly—that the service has been running for 102 years across Newfoundland. That's a very large, expansive, 1,000-kilometre trek. You indicated your commitment to maintaining that service. Offering service to people in all parts of Newfoundland is laudable, and you certainly make some good points.
I want to understand this. I'm presuming that over the course of 102 years, there have been times when it's been profitable and times when it's not been profitable. There have been peaks and valleys. Perhaps there's a trend line.
Can you speak a bit about that?
Noon
General Manager, DRL Coachlines Ltd.
I'll just clarify that we as a company have been in business for 102 years, but our bus business has been on the go for 30 years.
We took it over from Canadian National when they privatized back in 1996. They were losing $3.6 million a year in the last year, when we looked at their books, by operating the service across the island. We still decided to buy it, believe it or not, so if you want to tell me there's a lot wrong, yes, there is. Over that period, there were some decent times, but, as you know, more and more people became dependent on the automobile, with the independence to go when they want to and when they could.
However, I'll show our credibility. The service was offered when Roadcruiser was the vision of CN. It operated a run per day from St. John's to Port aux Basques. Over the last 30 years, there have only been 41 days when we have not operated, and that's due to weather. Every other day, the schedule was as close as we could keep it, given weather and conditions. We have not bowed out and said, “No, we're not going.” During COVID, there were days when there were three people on the bus, but we still left Port aux Basques and went to St. John's.
There's an expression in Newfoundland: “If the bus is not going, don't no one else move.” It's not fit. It's not good. It's not whatever. They always call and say, “If the bus is going, there's a possibility we might be able to go.” We have credibility about running, yes; dependability, yes; profitability, no. It's being subsidized by another part of my business, but I'm still living for that great day, as we say.
I just wanted to explain that to you.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Muys Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON
Thank you, sir, for that explanation. That's incredible: 41 days in 30 years.
One of the other services you offer and that I think you spoke on—and I know that other witnesses have touched on it—is parcel or package delivery and getting things from point A to point B. If your service were not operating—and you're generously subsidizing that, as you pointed out—and someone had to send something via courier or FedEx or in a different way, I'm presuming that it would take longer than the 13 hours for your bus to get there. What would be the typical delivery time across the island?
12:05 p.m.
General Manager, DRL Coachlines Ltd.
If you were sending something from St. John's to—I'll just pick a decent spot—Corner Brook, it would probably be done in 48 hours. From St. John's to Port aux Basques, you're probably talking about 72 hours. You're looking at that anywhere.
We are right now pursuing that as an add-on. I have an expression: “If there are no bones in the seats, I have to have cargo in the hold.” I have to try to get revenue where I can. Only one thing pays for the bus: someone paying for a ticket or someone paying for a package. We don't get paid to go down the highway and just look nice and pretty.
I'll just tell you about our service and what we do to try to make it attractive. We have an onboard attendant. If you want to put your unaccompanied minor who is 9 years old on our coach to go from Corner Brook to St. John's, we'll take them and sign them on and look after them just like an airline does. If you want to put your mom on there who's 89 and doesn't know exactly where to get off, and you're afraid she's going to get off at the wrong stop, we'll look after her and make sure she gets there.
Someone would say, “That costs a lot of money.” Well, it's sure cheaper than the $600,000 that CN lost the last year they operated due to people not giving them the money for the tickets they sold. It's a loss of revenue.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Muys Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON
If it's not bones on seats or cargo in the hold, what are some of the cost challenges that you've seen in, say, the last five or 10 years that are really impacting your ability and that are costing you at the end of the day? Obviously, declining revenues are one aspect, but there must be upticks in costs. What are they?
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
I'm sorry about that, Mr. Muys. Unfortunately, there's no time left. However, perhaps one of your colleagues would generously contribute their time to allow him to respond.
Ms. Koutrakis, you have the floor for five minutes.