Evidence of meeting #56 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was services.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
Annie Koutrakis Liberal Vimy, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'll be splitting my time with Mr. Rogers.
I would now like to yield my time to Mr. Maheux to give us his recommendations. It would be very interesting for the committee to hear them.
12:05 p.m.
Administrator, Bus Carriers Federation
Thank you very much, madam.
My first recommendation is one that Mr. Daniel Côté, president of the Union des municipalités du Québec, made. As he mentioned, the federal government's Rural Transit Solutions Fund does not take into account operating expenses. These expenses would have to be eligible. Furthermore, this fund does not include inter-regional transportation, but only local transportation. There is therefore a contradiction between the federal government's desire, if it is indeed its desire, to support communities and keep them connected and the real usefulness of this fund. To be funded, projects must cover a village or town of 20,000 or 25,000 people. This does not work. The fund needs to be changed to fund interregional transport. People need to be able to access the nearest community that offers the services they are entitled to. So I certainly support that proposal.
With regard to the UMQ's second proposal, which is to improve the Zero Emission Transit Fund, I fully agree. I'll just digress for a moment regarding technology. Today, in intercity transport, the technology does not yet allow electric buses to travel long enough. They can travel 80 kilometres and come back, but that is not what we call intercity transport in the major regions of Canada. You have to be able to go 500 kilometres, and there's no technology to do that right now, even if we wanted to.
We have a lot of electric vehicles at home, especially in school transportation. At our congress, we were just trying out a new fully electric coach from MCI, and it had a range of 200 or 300 kilometres, round trip. It's not enough yet, but we'll get there one day, for sure.
The other proposal is the one I mentioned earlier. The federal government, while investing billions of dollars in infrastructure, has abolished the transit tax credit that was available to transit pass holders making intercity trips. It should be reinstated because it is important for riders in small communities. For example, to get here to Ottawa, our riders can use our Grand-Remous-Maniwaki-Gatineau-Ottawa route, which we have been operating for years with the help of the Gatineau Valley Regional County Municipality. We had users who paid a monthly transit fare, and when this tax credit was withdrawn, it had a significant impact on the use of this line. So that measure should be reintroduced.
I talked about bus companies that have a contract with public transit companies, which is very common in Quebec. I gave the example of a customer who gets on a bus in Joliette and pays five or seven dollars to go to Montreal. This customer does not pay any tax on his or her ticket. Why should people have to pay a tax on intercity transportation services? If you want people to use it and you want it to be fair, a tax exemption would be in order.
Here is another proposal. In Quebec, there is a gas tax rebate. This rebate does not exist at the federal level. The federal government could contribute by refunding a portion of the excise tax to carriers. That would certainly help...
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Annie Koutrakis Liberal Vimy, QC
Excuse me for interrupting you, Mr. Maheux, but I would like to leave some time for my colleague Mr. Rogers to speak.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Churence Rogers Liberal Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL
Thanks, Chair, and thanks to all the people who are with us today from the transport industry.
I'm going to go straight to Jason. Mr. Roberts, for the benefit of the committee members, would you identify your primary market? Who rides your buses? Would you agree with Transport Canada's statement that says busing is a provincial responsibility?
12:10 p.m.
General Manager, DRL Coachlines Ltd.
Our market is very wide. Our biggest users are mainly people who have no other means to travel. We do have more and more people, and that's why....The question was asked about our costing, and I didn't get a chance to answer, because I ran out of time there. It's a wide range. We carry everybody.
I spoke to a gentleman a couple of days ago. He was from Revenue Canada, going to do an audit somewhere on the west coast of Newfoundland. He couldn't get a flight there, so he took the bus. It's a wide range of people.
We have a lot of people who do not have other means. This time of year, in the winter, we have a lot people who take the bus who really need to get there and can't afford to miss their medical appointment in St. John's. They take the bus. We are known as, “You want to get there? You get on the bus, and we're going.” It's day in, day out, 365, without a stop.
We're diverse. There's a diversity of all types of people who ride the bus around the province with us. The numbers have levelled pretty well off on ridership. It's not declining, but expenses have gone through the roof, so we have to look for more riders to stay at the same ratio.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Roberts and Mr. Rogers.
Mr. Barsalou-Duval, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Maheux, thank you for all your proposals. I take very good note of them. I have listened carefully and we will see if we are able to incorporate as many as possible in the report that the committee will produce.
Mr. Côté, from the Union des municipalités du Québec, I may have a trick question for you. From what I understand, Mr. Maheux, other witnesses and you mentioned that it was important for the federal government to fund not just infrastructure, but also operating expenses. This is something that the public transit companies often tell us.
Some of the witnesses have come before us with an interesting question that I would like to hear your thoughts on. Not so long ago, a witness told us that investments in intercity transport were certainly an important subject of study, but that in terms of public or mass transport, we should first invest in the type of transport that someone needs in their daily life. We can think, for example, of transport to get to work, to school or to the hospital. This witness said that it was local transport that would be his priority.
As president of the UMQ and mayor of a regional city, what do you think of this statement? There are other means of transport that exist. We can think of the Quebec government's famous high-frequency train project, train transportation, which also goes to your region, air transportation, which is a major problem in the region, and bus transportation.
If you were given $1 billion, what would be your priority and where would you put the money first?
12:15 p.m.
President, Union des municipalités du Québec
In fact, we cannot be asked to make a priority choice. All means of transport are important. It depends on who it is for and it depends on the needs.
If you ask me what my need is as an elected official, it would be to have a reliable, predictable air service that makes sense, which is not the case at present. I hear the Quebec government talking about regional air transportation, but unfortunately I don't often hear the federal government talking about it, even though it falls under its jurisdiction. You will surely have the opportunity to work on this again at this committee.
As for other means of transportation, it depends on the needs. I understand that there is a certain concentration of people in cities and that there is intra-urban public transport, often with a high priority. But again, the operating costs are financed almost essentially by the municipal administration, which does not have the means to achieve its ambitions. There should therefore be some form of assistance for the operation of public transit, as well as intercity transport which, for people in the regions, is sometimes the means of getting to work or to hospitals or schools. It is important to take this into account.
I was hearing Mr. Maheux's proposals and I almost totally share his concerns. Coach tickets are taxed. Yet it is an essential service. Why do we tax essential services? Why are we taxing regional air service, which is also an essential service? Why do we have to pay the goods and services tax and the Quebec sales tax, among others, on these services, which are essential? Normally, an essential service should not be taxed.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you, Mr. Côté.
Thank you very much, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.
Next we have Mr. Bachrach. The floor is yours. You have two and a half minutes.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have a question for Professor Perry.
I appreciated your testimony and the way that you highlighted the impact of the loss of services on marginalized communities.
A lot of this conversation has been about intercommunity transportation within regions and within provinces, but another important aspect of this question is interprovincial transport. With Greyhound, riders used to be able to buy a single ticket and move between different regions of Canada. I wonder if you could speak to the way that the loss of those longer-haul routes has affected the marginalized communities that you've based your research on.
12:15 p.m.
Distinguished Professor, History and Women’s and Gender Studies, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Thank you very much for the question.
The British North America Act is a complicated document. Where transportation fits is something that has been an object of discussion and debate, but we also know that in Canada's history, there have been times when we revisited the extent to which ideas about provincial and federal jurisdiction work. I think that in this case, with this particular form of transportation, it seems fairly clear that the idea of bus transportation can be easily met with provincial jurisdiction doesn't go very far.
A national carrier offered, however imperfectly, the capacity to buy one ticket with one carrier to travel between provinces. The shift from that to the current patchwork, which is both imperfect within the context where it exists and also extraordinarily difficult to access and to coordinate, is a real problem. Manitoba makes that clear, in the sense that there are connections with Ontario Northland to the east but extremely limited connections now with our provincial neighbours to the west, running literally once a week and leaving after midnight.
What we see there is the limit of the presumption that provincial jurisdiction can work to offer people the sorts of services they need, not simply to access resources and services within a provincial context but to maintain ties with friends and family, to pursue opportunities for work and to have a community that may exist beyond provincial borders.
These borders are not necessarily the most relevant ones in any given context. In a context in which the question is the possibility of a national bus service, I think we can really see that kind of service acting as a social, economic and environmental good. It's one that requires us to think about policy and practice beyond profitability as a generator—
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Professor Perry. Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.
Next we have Dr. Lewis. The floor is yours. You have five minutes.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I would like to also thank all of the witnesses for presenting today. My question is for Dr. Perry.
I'm going to refer to something that Dr. Jaffe said. She stated that reconciliation requires transportation equity. I'm paraphrasing her.
Adjacent to the region that I represent, Haldimand—Norfolk, is the Six Nations reserve. We know that many of these rural communities, including the Six Nations reserve, have limited access to the cities by way of public transportation, and that impacts on the quality of life.
I would like to hear from Dr. Jaffe how she believes reconciliation can be facilitated through transportation equity.
12:20 p.m.
Professor, Department of Sociology and Social Studies, University of Regina, As an Individual
You started off by saying you wanted to ask this of Dr. Perry.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
12:20 p.m.
Distinguished Professor, History and Women’s and Gender Studies, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Thank you for the question.
I'm happy to share my time with Dr. Jaffe as well, who I think could speak to this in very real ways.
The challenges of reconciliation are material. They're substantial. They are much more than symbolic, as I think the lived practice of transportation shows us in real and tangible ways. Many of the things that would make a measurable impact on the outcomes that are critical to a different relationship between non-indigenous communities and indigenous communities can be seen in something like transportation policy. It would work to provide connections between indigenous communities and other communities, but also tie indigenous communities to each other.
Some of these issues get us to think beyond our urban-rural dichotomy. We are often talking about communities, such as Winnipeg and Brandon, that meet any definition of an urban community. These issues of connectivity—the inability of a private market, the lack of interest from provincial governments in providing transportation—particularly affect certain communities. Indigenous communities, and especially indigenous women, are certainly among those affected.
This is a very concrete way that the federal government can respond to the calls to justice from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, and in less direct but also important ways respond to the calls to action of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
12:20 p.m.
Professor, Department of Sociology and Social Studies, University of Regina, As an Individual
I think that Dr. Perry did a great job, but I do want to add one thing.
When we were working on our research with “Here Today, Gone Tomorrow”, which was our knowledge synthesis project on public transportation and vulnerability in rural and remote Canada, we held a stakeholder meeting, and quite a few people from indigenous communities came. They discussed their problems with the lack of public transportation and how living in remote communities meant that when they wanted to go anywhere, it would take a tremendous amount of time. Whenever they had a health appointment, a social services appointment or whatever it might be, they were forced to go from this bus to that bus to this service, waiting for something else to happen, and then get a ride here and hitchhike there or whatever it might be. What might take you or me two hours if we're living in cities would take them perhaps three or four days.
It's worth understanding that it speaks to our values as a society that values time when people are excluded from participation in society because of the time and the effort that it takes to do things.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON
Thank you both.
My next question is for Mr. Roberts.
Mr. Roberts, I want to start by thanking you for the sacrifice you've made in keeping the transportation in your province alive. You stated that you operate DRL at a loss and that you're subsidizing it through your other businesses.
How much longer do you believe you can continue to operate at a loss and continue the level of services that you're currently providing?
12:25 p.m.
General Manager, DRL Coachlines Ltd.
That's a good question.
I think the merit of that question comes to my desire to continue to do it. If you see that someone really cares about what you're doing and is willing to come to the plate with you and play ball with you....
How much longer can we do that? I don't know. As long as I can do it I will do it, but it would be so, so good to know that someone was coming on board to help the situation so that we can take care of the 250,000 other Newfoundlanders who are not in the big city and are across the 900 kilometres that are outside of the city perimeters.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Roberts, and thank you very much, Dr. Lewis.
Before I turn it over to Mr. Iacono for the final line of questioning for five minutes I want to apologize to Dr. Perry. I've been referring to you as Professor Perry, but I didn't have it in my notes. I just did some research and saw that you received your senior Ph.D. from York University. Dr. Perry, I apologize.
Now I will turn it over to Mr. Iacono.
You have the floor.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I thank all the witnesses for being here. This will give us a little more direction.
Mr. Côté, dear colleague, I congratulate you on your very interesting career. I listened to your opening remarks and your recommendations.
Has the Government of Quebec expressed an interest in working with other levels of government to re‑establish intercity bus lines?
12:25 p.m.
President, Union des municipalités du Québec
I can't speak for the Quebec government, but it would be interesting if the links were re‑established between Quebec City and Ottawa, both for air transport and intercity transport or other. We can see that relations are difficult, and it is the citizens and regions of Quebec that are paying the price.
I would like us to find common ground. One way to do this is to respect the jurisdictions of each level of government, municipal, provincial and federal. If everyone respects these jurisdictions, it will make things easier.