Evidence of meeting #69 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sabia.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
Thank you.
These long-term financial loans you spoke about for greening your entire fleet were done with you and the Canada Infrastructure Bank on the merits of the project and the needs of your municipality. You had absolutely no connection with outside consultants or firms like McKinsey in the development of this.
Mayor of Brampton, As an Individual
No. I would say this has been an aspirational goal for the city of Brampton. We have a committee that identifies how we're going to achieve our emissions reduction plan. It's a committee of experts and citizens. This was identified as a key component for our plan. It was aspirational that we find a partner with the federal government. We were very relieved and grateful when we had this partnership with the Canada Infrastructure Bank, because—as I said—this is a key component of our local emissions reduction plan.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
Thank you.
I find it interesting that your experience with McKinsey was through a former Harper staffer, something that, I think, will shock the Conservatives on this committee.
Thank you for your testimony.
Ms. Raitt, I wanted to chat with you. It's certainly nice to see you. I'm sorry this is interrupting your vacation. I miss our time together on the finance committee.
Your opening statement was interesting, in terms of your support for P3s. I think we could debate which system is more successful or how best to deliver.... I think that's a very healthy debate we could have. In fact, that's not the position Conservative colleagues are taking. Their position is, “Let's just leave the private sector to do all of this.”
I was interested in your podcast with Ehren Cory. You spoke about the infrastructure gap and how this is a challenge all governments are dealing with. Do you think just leaving it to the private sector to build or deal with the infrastructure gap, whatever that delivery is—whether it's P3s or the Infrastructure Bank—is a realistic way to close this gap?
Co-Chair, Coalition for a Better Future, As an Individual
I think that, given what the United States has done in bringing in the Inflation Reduction Act, Canada has to use every lever it possibly has to ensure there is the adequate financing of projects necessary for our economic growth. One of them is government funding. How you do it is going to be up to the government of the day.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Ms. O'Connell.
Thank you, Ms. Raitt.
Mr. Barsalou-Duval now has the floor for two and half minutes.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Sabia, earlier you talked about the time when, as president of the Infrastructure Bank of Canada, you gave a contract to McKinsey. You pointed out that the bank was not doing very well at that time; at least, it was struggling to get off the ground. McKinsey was going to help you make that happen. You also talked about why you chose McKinsey, that they had a deep understanding of the bank, of how it worked, of why it was created.
Can you explain where this knowledge came from? How do you think McKinsey was able to acquire this knowledge?
Member, Advisory Council on Economic Growth
Essentially, McKinsey had done a lot of work around the world on infrastructure issues and how to increase levels of investment in infrastructure. Their experience was not limited to Canada; it was global. With access to that kind of deep expertise, it was a way for us to save a lot of time in finding ways to accelerate the bank's activities.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Did that have anything to do with the creation or the implementation of the Canada Infrastructure Bank?
Member, Advisory Council on Economic Growth
In my opinion, it was not a determining factor. McKinsey has a very competent infrastructure team.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
You were involved in the automated light metro network project in Montreal, the REM, in which the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec was basically the prime contractor. That project also received funding from the Infrastructure Bank of Canada.
By the time the federal government's participation was announced, Prime Minister Trudeau had announced a contribution of $1.28 billion. However, a little later, that $1.28 billion grant turned into a loan from the Infrastructure Bank of Canada.
Can you explain to me how this contribution changed from a grant to a loan?
Member, Advisory Council on Economic Growth
I am sure you are aware and understand the nature of REM. It is a very important transit project in Montreal.
To me, it's a good example of the level of investment needed to make transportation more fluid in our major cities. It's comparable—
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Mr. Sabia, this is the question I have for you.
How is it that a grant turned into a loan?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Unfortunately, your time is up, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.
Next we have Mr. Bachrach.
The floor is yours. You have two and a half minutes.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Sabia, when you were a member of the advisory council on economic growth, were you asked to sign any sort of documents related to conflict of interest?
Member, Advisory Council on Economic Growth
I believe so, but I'll have to go back and check. That was many years ago, but I believe so.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
The media reporting that I've seen indicates that every member of the council was required to sign a document committing to avoiding real and perceived conflict of interest.
Does that ring a bell?
Member, Advisory Council on Economic Growth
I think it would be a normal course of activity, so that's why I say.... I don't vividly remember that, given the number of years that have passed, but it would make sense.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
At the time that you were a member of this advisory council, which was advising the Canada Infrastructure Bank on procurement models, you were also the head of a major institutional investor, the Caisse, which was proposing an infrastructure investment to the bank. Is that correct?
Member, Advisory Council on Economic Growth
No, that's not correct. That's completely incorrect.
That work at the council was in 2016. The bank hadn't even been created at that point. The bank was created subsequently in the years later by the Government of Canada. By then, the growth council had ceased its work and it was after that—after the creation of the bank, some years further down the road—when CDPQ developed the idea of the REM.
Because part of that project was about utilizing the capital of CDPQ to accomplish a major investment, which attracted capital from both the Government of Quebec and the Government of Canada, the Government of Canada decided that an appropriate vehicle for that investment would be the Canada Infrastructure Bank. However, that suggestion was well past the days of the growth council.
How the Government of Canada decided and chose to participate in the financing of an important transit project in Montreal was entirely the decision of the Government of Canada. It was not a decision of the CDPQ at all.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Sabia.
Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.
Next we have Dr. Lewis. The floor is yours once again. You have five minutes.
Conservative
Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My question is for Mr. Sabia again.
If we can, let's go back to that meeting of June 23, 2020, which happened from 8 a.m. to 9:15 a.m. To confirm, that meeting was set up while Dominic Barton was still ambassador to China, and he, in fact, attended the strategic work that you initiated when you became chair of the Canada Infrastructure Bank.
Isn't that correct, Mr. Sabia?
Conservative
Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON
Zak said in the memo that things were “delicate”. What was so delicate? Was it the fact that Mr. Barton was a sitting ambassador meeting with the chair of the Infrastructure Bank, a Canadian Crown corporation, and that he needed to speak freely about the strategic direction of the bank, as the memo said? Was that what was delicate?