Evidence of meeting #69 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sabia.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Sabia  Member, Advisory Council on Economic Growth
Lisa Raitt  Co-Chair, Coalition for a Better Future, As an Individual
Patrick Brown  Mayor of Brampton, As an Individual
Diane Therrien  Senior Research Officer, Canadian Union of Public Employees

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting no. 69 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motions adopted by the committee on Tuesday, February 14, 2023, and on Thursday, May 4, 2023, the committee is meeting to discuss its study on the role of McKinsey & Company in the creation and the beginnings of the Canada Infrastructure Bank.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House Order of Thursday, June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I wish to inform all members before we begin that all of the witnesses have been sound-tested for the benefit of our interpreters and have passed the test.

Colleagues, we have a number of witnesses appearing before us today. From the advisory council on economic growth, we have Mr. Michael Sabia, member. As an individual, we have the Honourable Lisa Raitt, co-chair of Coalition for a Better Future. As an individual, we have Mr. Patrick Brown, the mayor of Brampton, joining us by video conference. From the Canadian Union of Public Employees, we have Diane Therrien, senior research officer, also joining us by video conference.

Welcome to all.

We will begin today with opening remarks from Mr. Sabia.

I'll turn the floor over to you, Mr. Sabia, for five minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Michael Sabia Member, Advisory Council on Economic Growth

Mr. Chair, I'm fine. I don't have any opening remarks.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Thank you very much, Mr. Sabia.

We'll now turn it over to Ms. Raitt.

Ms. Raitt, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

May 16th, 2023 / 11:10 a.m.

Lisa Raitt Co-Chair, Coalition for a Better Future, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm delighted to be here with you all today. As you may be able to tell, I am not in an office. I actually thought that once I left Parliament it would no longer ruin family vacations, but here I am, talking to you from Marseilles, France, on a cruise ship. Thank you very much for the opportunity to talk to you today about one of my favourite topics, which has to do with my time in Parliament.

Mr. Chair, I will be short in my remarks as well.

I have taken a look at the topic of the meeting. The meeting is on the role of McKinsey & Company in the creation and the beginning of the Canada Infrastructure Bank. My opening statement will be about my time in Parliament, which was from 2015 until 2019, and before that as a member of the government from 2008 to 2015.

The record will show, and Hansard will show, that as a member of Her Majesty's loyal opposition, I voted against the creation of the Canada Infrastructure Bank. From my perspective, there was a perfectly good Crown corporation that was reporting to the finance minister, known as PPP Canada, which administered the P3 Canada fund.

Since that time, there has been $1.3 billion in 25 large or complex infrastructure projects facilitated by this fund. I'll give you a few examples—transit in Barrie, Edmonton, Montreal, Saskatoon and Calgary; clean energy in Kokish River and in Surrey; water treatment in Alberta in a number of different places; and housing renewal in Downtown Eastside, Vancouver.

This was a successful Crown corporation that, as I said, reported directly to the Minister of Finance and actually had the knock-on effect and impact of P3 projects and offices being set up in the provinces across the country in order to facilitate smooth working amongst provinces and the federal state. In fact, it was a success. In 2011 Jim Flaherty was named minister of the year by an Infrastructure Investor publication as a result of the creation of this fund.

In 2015, with the success of the Trudeau government coming to power, PPP Canada was no longer going to be in place, for lack of a better term. The Crown was dissolved. In response to that period of time, I believe we saw, or at least I saw when I was still in Parliament, a loss of time when dealing with infrastructure projects. To give you a snapshot, between 2018 and 2023 this loss of time has seen changes in P3s going from Finance or something like it to now reporting to Infrastructure. Ministers have changed four separate times since its inception. It was given its own ministry for a period of time, but now it's back with Intergovernmental Affairs.

I would just say that, in your deliberations, Mr. Chair, governance and structure and focus are very important when it comes to delivering in Crown corporations. I believe a lot more could have been accomplished in the period of time since 2015, and with the same outcomes, through the vehicle of PPP Canada with, of course, the change in mandate that is the right of the government that won in 2015.

Thank you very much. Those are my opening remarks. I'm happy to answer any questions.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Thank you very much, Ms. Raitt.

Next, we have Mr. Brown.

Mr. Brown, the floor is yours. You have five minutes for your opening remarks.

11:10 a.m.

Patrick Brown Mayor of Brampton, As an Individual

Thank you.

Let me say, first of all, that it's great to be here on a panel of such distinguished guests. The Honourable Lisa Raitt was, I think, one of Canada's finest transport ministers. It's so great to be back before this committee.

I'll note that I got a summons to attend this committee. There was no summons needed. I'm happy to share how the Canada Infrastructure Bank has benefited the city of Brampton, and I brought notes from our Brampton Transit department.

I'll tell you why we were very interested in the Canada Infrastructure Bank. One of our finest residents in Brampton was former premier Bill Davis, who, sadly, passed away a few years ago. He created Ontario's first environment ministry. We've always taken our responsibilities under climate change seriously because it's in our DNA in Brampton. We set out a plan to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 80% by 2050 in our city. With any climate change plan, everyone has good intentions, but how to hold yourself accountable for that plan and how to find the finances to deliver on that plan are always challenges.

We looked at where we have a large source of emissions. It is the transportation sector. We've been struggling with how to deal with that as Canada's fastest-growing big city. We have the fastest-growing transit system in Canada right now. Unfortunately, if we continue with the status quo, we're going to see emissions skyrocket, and that's not consistent with our own plan, or with Canada's environmental aspirations either.

We have an agreement with the Canada Infrastructure Bank. We're very grateful for the support of $400 million to allow us to have all our buses become electrified. This will save 57,000 tonnes of greenhouse gases. In other words, that's 12,396 passenger vehicles off the road each year. It's a quieter and more comfortable ride for transit users and lower maintenance costs. Because of this agreement.... We would never have had the financial capacity to purchase an entirely new fleet of buses. As one of our traditional diesel buses meets the end of its life, we're now, for every single one, purchasing an electric one. We would not have had that financial capacity. Municipal resources are limited to property tax dollars.

We know that, long term, this is a fundamentally important change for the city, and I would suggest that every city will go this way. Right now, Brampton and Ottawa are in a race. Who's going to be the first to have a fully electrified transit fleet? I believe that, at one point, we're going to see every big city with an electrified transit fleet, so this is critical. I think it is the way every big city needs to go.

The way the agreement works with the Canada Infrastructure Bank is.... This is not a grant to the city. It's a loan, and we pay back the loan based on the savings of fuel. I thought it was a clever way to use the additional financial capacity of the federal government and allow municipalities to transition to this format.

I only have praise for how the Canada Infrastructure Bank has been able to help the city of Brampton with a fundamental transition, and I want to say thank you. I hope this is an example of how the Canada Infrastructure Bank has been very helpful to municipalities. A lot of governments are not able to meet their outlined goals and emissions targets. Sadly, that's been the case in Canada for too long. I look at what we're doing right now in Brampton. We're actually going to meet our city's emissions reduction targets, and this is a huge component of it.

Thank you for having me here today. I brought all of my notes from our transit department, if you have any questions.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Thank you very much, Mayor Brown.

Next, and finally, we have Diane Therrien.

We'll turn it over to you for your five-minute opening remarks.

11:15 a.m.

Diane Therrien Senior Research Officer, Canadian Union of Public Employees

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for having me here today.

CUPE has been keenly involved and interested in the development and implementation of the Canada Infrastructure Bank. I know this committee has previously resolved that the bank should be abolished, but we approach with cautious optimism how it might perhaps be reformed.

CUPE's been consistent in its support for a public infrastructure bank that provides low-cost loans to local governments to finance new public infrastructure and strengthen their communities. The recommendations that CUPE submitted back in March provide suggestions for how to create a truly public bank with public interest at the forefront of its mandate.

During the 2015 federal campaign, the Liberals proposed the creation of a public bank with the mandate to provide those low-cost loans for local government. The original vision of the CIB was in response to the massive infrastructure deficit faced by local governments across Canada, which is over $52 billion in Ontario alone. Municipal and other local governments, as we've heard, have very limited budgets and routinely turn to senior levels of government for assistance in funding or financing major capital projects.

The idea of a CIB that would provide low-cost loans was a welcome one. A public bank to help communities fund their many infrastructure needs is crucial, and there are examples of public banks in countries such as the Netherlands, Germany, Finland and Norway—I could go on. These banks have been successful because they have remained committed to the core mandate of financing public development, sustainable infrastructure and ensuring public good.

There was concern when McKinsey was hired to provide advice about the CIB, and those fears were realized when it managed to convince the federal government to divert the bank from its original proposed purpose. After McKinsey's and its affiliate BlackRock's involvement in the development of the CIB, there was a major shift in mandate. The objective shifted to focus on leveraging private capital to finance infrastructure projects, and to invest and seek to attract investment from private sector investors and institutional investors, which would supposedly generate revenue. We know now, five years in, that the bank has failed to achieve these objectives.

In our democracy, it is vital that consultants should not be influencing policy. There have been other hearings about McKinsey and its extensive government contracts, which I will not delve into today, other than to remind the committee that the interests of McKinsey are not the interests of Canadians. Rather, McKinsey is interested in increasing value for its shareholders. The same is true of BlackRock, which played a large part in lobbying the government to change the original mandate of the CIB.

A real public infrastructure bank should provide low-cost financing to municipalities and local governments, and it must be accountable and transparent. McKinsey's focus on revenue generation for public infrastructure will likely mean user fees and charges, and a mandate to attract investment from private sector investors is really a way of codifying a mandate to privatize public assets.

The CIB has not reached its target of attracting up to five dollars of private financing for every public dollar. It hasn't even been able to maintain a 1:1 ratio.

We have seen the rejection of the attempts to privatize in municipalities like Mapleton, which refused to outsource the construction and operation of their municipal wastewater treatment plant back in 2020. It's important to remember that consultants hired to do service reviews are not the experts in municipal infrastructure or government service delivery.

McKinsey, which has received at least $116.8 million in federal contracts since 2015, operates under the direction of its shareholders council, which is another name for a board of directors. That its top governance structure is called the shareholders council reaffirms the fact that McKinsey, like other major consulting companies, is working primarily for the benefit of its shareholders.

Examining the role of McKinsey in the creation and development of the CIB makes it clear that diverting from the original proposed vision of the public bank was a mistake, and that the influence of McKinsey and BlackRock over what became the CIB's mandate was never truly in the best interests of Canadians or our communities. McKinsey, again, is not accountable to the residents of Canada but to its shareholders. Its advice, therefore, should not be taken in good faith, given the historical and ongoing criticisms of how such firms have undermined public services and advocated for the privatization of public services.

The primary benefactors of the CIB must be municipalities and local governments in Canada and the residents across our country who have been waiting for major infrastructure projects to improve their quality of life and their communities. Unfortunately, this has not been the case with the CIB, and the government's overreliance on multinational firms like McKinsey has been part of the problem.

CUPE knows, through an inquiry to the ministry, that at least three other consulting firms have been given contracts by the federal government as part of the five-year review of the CIB. The infiltration of government by multinational consulting firms has been a rising problem since at least the 1980s.

CUPE, as the largest union in Canada with members in all sectors, including municipal infrastructure, has a vested interest in seeing the CIB transform and succeed.

We made recommendations to that effect: The CIB must change its core mandate and reorient back towards a truly public model, wherein the beneficiaries are citizens, community members and Canadians across the country. The CIB also must be more transparent and its governance more representative, including having board members from municipal and local governments, the labour movement, civil society and infrastructure users. The CIB must also advance truth and reconciliation through meaningful ongoing relationship building with indigenous communities and make sustainability a requirement for CIB funding, ensuring that climate mitigation and adaptation are included in all funded projects.

To conclude, the CIB, as such, has failed to meet its objectives, and McKinsey's and BlackRock's advice prevented the CIB from becoming a truly public bank. Multinational consultancies like McKinsey, again, are accountable to their shareholders and not to the Canadian public, thus they have no real reason to prioritize the very real needs of community infrastructure. McKinsey and other consultancies are notorious for providing advice to governments that undermines the work of the public service and seeks to continue down the neo-Liberal path of privatizing those public services.

CUPE encourages the committee to revisit the original proposal for the CIB, which would provide low-cost financing for new infrastructure projects. There are models of successful public banks around the world that we can turn to for guidance. We simply need to choose to take a path forward that is bold, innovative and results-driven, and that places the people and communities of Canada at the forefront of any decisions.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for your time. I'm happy to answer any of the questions of the committee.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Thank you very much, Ms. Therrien.

We'll begin our line of questioning today with Dr. Lewis.

Dr. Lewis, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first line of questioning is going to be for Mr. Sabia.

Mr. Sabia, you sat on the advisory council from 2016 to 2017. I understand the council was instrumental in providing advice to the bank. Is it fair to say that you had a good understanding and knowledge of the design and construction of the bank as an advisory council member?

11:20 a.m.

Member, Advisory Council on Economic Growth

Michael Sabia

I think we need to pull back a little bit here and think about the role of the growth council overall. The growth council, to the best of my recollection, was intended to be a source of additional ideas to the government to address a big challenge that faced Canada at the time and that continues: to enhance Canada's potential rate of economic growth, particularly on a per capita basis. The role—

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Was that what the deep-dive infrastructure agency was about, Mr. Sabia? Does that tie in to your answer there?

11:25 a.m.

Member, Advisory Council on Economic Growth

Michael Sabia

Yes, it certainly does because growth is about the combination, as you know, of labour force growth and productivity, and infrastructure is an indispensable part of improving Canada's productivity. Now it requires other things as well, but infrastructure is an important piece of it.

My point here is—

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Thank you, Mr. Sabia, for the answer. I have very limited time. You did answer the question sufficiently. Thank you.

You were also president and CEO of Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec, CDPQ, from 2008 to February 2020 while you sat on the advisory council, the council that provided advice and recommendations to the bank. You had both positions at that same time. Is that correct?

11:25 a.m.

Member, Advisory Council on Economic Growth

Michael Sabia

My employment was being the CEO of Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec. On a volunteer basis, I accepted to participate in the work of the growth council.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Wonderful.

That knowledge of the creation of the bank actually paid off because the very first investment the Canada Infrastructure Bank made after its creation was in the amount of $1.28 billion, which was awarded to a project run by the institutional investor that you were president and CEO of at the time. Is that correct?

11:25 a.m.

Member, Advisory Council on Economic Growth

Michael Sabia

Yes, but those two things are completely unconnected.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

They may be, but do they not look like a conflict of interest to you, sir?

11:25 a.m.

Member, Advisory Council on Economic Growth

Michael Sabia

No, they don't.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

During the time with the Quebec pension fund, did you engage in contracts with McKinsey?

11:25 a.m.

Member, Advisory Council on Economic Growth

Michael Sabia

We did use McKinsey from time to time at CDPQ. I think we did, yes.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Let me refresh your memory. In fact, during the time as president of the pension fund, your organization awarded contracts to McKinsey.

Do you recall the value of those contracts?

11:25 a.m.

Member, Advisory Council on Economic Growth

Michael Sabia

I'm sorry. I don't.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Were any of those McKinsey projects in relation to the CDPQ Montreal REM light rail project?

11:25 a.m.

Member, Advisory Council on Economic Growth

Michael Sabia

I do not recall precisely, but I think not, although I could be corrected on that.