Transport Committee on Oct. 4th, 2023

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

When it comes to disaster mitigation, many of the communities in my riding have been experiencing coastal erosion and major problems. Recently I was fortunate to have four projects approved in my riding to do things like coastal work with armour stone and that kind of thing. It's really valuable and important for these communities.

In the future, are we going to continue to fund that or expand that kind of program?

[Kelly Gillis]

As I mentioned, we are just doing a final round with the funding of almost a billion dollars. We have, in coastal erosion, invested in 11 projects for $252 million. It has been a significant investment to mitigate against that particular threat to our communities.

Floods have certainly been the largest threat we've been investing to mitigate, about two-thirds or $1.7 billion, because we've had a number of projects that have already been approved, but right now we've just closed an application, and we'll be making decisions over the coming months on further investments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Deputy Minister Gillis.

Thank you, Mr. Rogers.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you now have the floor for six minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome once again, Ms. Gillis. I don't know how long you have been with the department, but it seems you are part of the furniture. So you will certainly be able to answer our questions today.

I would also like to ask you something that I did not have the chance to ask the minister earlier. I am referring to the impact of inflation on budgets, particularly municipalities' budgets. A number of them have called to say they have a problem: they issued a call for tenders to build a new sports centre, for example, but in the end the sports centre will cost twice what they budgeted. They have appealed to Quebec to increase the funding it provides. Quebec says it will. They have also tried to find out if the federal government can increase its financial participation. In the end, however, the municipalities are not receiving additional funding so the projects cannot be completed.

Is the government aware of this problem? Do you anticipate reviewing your policies so the projects can be completed? Inflation has unfortunately led to cost overruns. Everything costs more. Since everyone is paying more, so should the federal government.

[Kelly Gillis]

Thank you for the question.

We evaluate projects and cost increases on a case-by-case basis. We look at the scope of the project, and determine whether we can work with the community or the province to see what options are available to us. As to future programs, we have to consider unforeseen events to ensure that we take potential cost changes into account.

We work on a case-by-case basis to assess the options, and we work with Quebec. Sometimes we find solutions, but sometimes there are fewer options. It really depends how far along in the construction process the project is.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you for your answer.

My next question pertains to the fund. We talked about the importance of adapting to climate change, which I consider very important. Yet the witnesses who have appeared before the committee all told us the same thing, that there is not enough money.

Earlier you said that no more applications will be accepted under the fund. What can we tell municipalities who say they need funding to adapt to climate change?

[Kelly Gillis]

Thank you for the question.

The call for projects for the Disaster Mitigation and Adaptation Fund has just closed; we received the last applications a few months ago.

First, we will soon be able to invest more in infrastructure adaptation. Further, we will look at the shape of future programs once we have made our decisions for this fund. At the same time, we are investing in codes, standards and tools to help communities better understand how to plan in order to make their infrastructure more resilient.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you.

My next question pertains to the Canada Infrastructure Bank, or CIB.

Among the solutions mentioned to enable the CIB to meet community needs, we could include provinces and municipalities at the decision-making table. Can you tell us whether such a consultation process exists?

For instance, when the CIB decides to invest in a project in Quebec, is there a process requiring it to confer with Quebec? Even though these are federal investments in infrastructure, it is very likely that the project will fall partially if not entirely under Quebec's jurisdiction.

[Kelly Gillis]

The CIB's board of directors selects the projects it invests in.

As to the communication process and discussions with the various orders of government, the CIB has many discussions, depending on the project, but not with the federal government. Those discussions are within the CIB itself, so it can make the decisions it considers appropriate for the government of Quebec or communities in Quebec.

I know it has invested in various projects in Quebec and has had discussions with the Quebec government.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

So, if I understand correctly, the CIB often has its own discussions with the Quebec government, but there is no directive or requirement from Infrastructure Canada, for instance, for the CIB to do so every time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Give a 15-second response, please.

[Kelly Gillis]

No, the CIB determines its own process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

Next we have Ms. Zarrillo.

Ms. Zarrillo, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for being here today.

This committee has recently gone through a study on adapting infrastructure to face climate change. From the witness testimony, we heard overwhelmingly that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

When I think about the infrastructure deficit in communities across Canada, which the minister mentioned today, it's insurmountable at this point. With the growing impacts of climate change, I'm wondering what Infrastructure Canada is planning to do differently to address this growing deficit.

[Kelly Gillis]

As we look at resilience and adaptation, it is a really important area of opportunity for the country and investment need, but as I was explaining a minute ago, not just the capital investment at the end but also what we like to explain as a value chain, doing research. We have our research program to understand what we need to know from the changes in wind, for heat and for green canopies. How do we know that those things are going to make a difference? How do we change that in the way we build? We're investing with the National Research Council and the Standards Council in bringing different codes, standards and knowledge into application for communities and for the construction industry.

We're also working with tools to be able to provide to communities to take.... There's a lot of information out there, but how do you practically put that into use? To be able to know, if I live in this community in this part of Canada, that this is the forecast of change of weather that I'm going to be facing and that these are the types of infrastructure investments and codes that I should be thinking about for my infrastructure...and then also supporting asset management and being able to take that into being good custodians. Then finally, downstream, it's taking that knowledge into consideration and making the right investments for the long term.

That's how we're looking at infrastructure and doing it differently for the future.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

In regard to the knowledge, we know that there is indigenous knowledge. We know that there are NGOs on the ground. We know that Public Works has all kinds of information. How is that information getting funnelled up to Infrastructure Canada? I can think of a number of NGOs that are doing the work on the ground and aren't getting federal support.

[Kelly Gillis]

As we look at providing more online tools—and this is part of the national adaptation strategy—we aren't looking to do it ourselves. We are looking at doing it through a consortium, and we are working with a consortium of NGOs, because they do have expertise on the ground. It can't all be done by federal public servants. As part of this and the online tools we provide to clients, it's for them to be able to access the knowledge that they have...and then be readily available to help them understand the different investments they have to make for their communities.

I agree 100% with you. There are a lot of really good NGOs out there that have fantastic knowledge, and it needs to be shared and then used by communities. We're working with that objective in mind.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

That would be great. I'd love to see you come out to B.C. and look at some of the work we're doing in the watersheds and on watershed resiliency.

I'm going to pivot right now to the Infrastructure Bank because I was disappointed to see that a REIT was funded through the Infrastructure Bank. I'm not sure if that funding came to be, but I do note that the mandate for the Canada Infrastructure Bank talks about how they have to be decarbonized and any savings need to go down to tenants—they even call out tenants in that.

Can you let me know the decision behind funding REITs for retrofits and and if any savings are flowing down to tenants?

[Kelly Gillis]

The Canada Infrastructure Bank does have a mandate on the built environment to reduce GHGs and to support retrofits and deep retrofits. It is their decision afterwards to determine what types of buildings can get good reductions in GHGs.

That particular program or investment would have been about reduced GHGs. We'd have to get more details on that particular investment from the Canada Infrastructure Bank.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I'd like to request that, then, because the response I received to my Order Paper question said, “Ultimately, savings from energy savings, efficiencies and operating cost savings are passed on to building owners and tenants.”

I just want to know how you're tracking that and what happened with that one.

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have one minute and 30 seconds left.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I'm going to pivot to transit right now because Infrastructure Canada itself funded part of a study around the gender lens in relation to public transit. We know, out of that study and even from other studies, that in public transit, women and persons with disabilities are disproportionally affected by lack of transit. At the same time, women use public transit at different times and more often.

I wonder if you could share, when we talk about inclusive Canada, what's happening with persons with disabilities. You probably know that in B.C. right now, in the metro Vancouver area, there aren't enough operating funds to offer the HandyDART anymore. It's become quite difficult for persons with disabilities. They are being asked to take a taxi, where someone maybe doesn't have the skills or even the continuity to work with a person.

Could you just let me know, on the gender lens as well as on the disability lens, what is happening on public transit?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have 30 seconds, please, Ms. Gillis.

[Kelly Gillis]

Public transit is a really important investment. We do know it's really important for vulnerable populations. We do use the Statistics Canada multiple deprivation index as we look at where transit is going to be served, to make sure that we understand the different districts. Then, within this particular ministry as we look to the future, bringing in housing as an integrated approach to make sure that we're not displacing those who need the transit is a really new opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Deputy Minister Gillis.

Thank you, Ms. Zarillo.

Next we have Mr. Muys.

The floor is yours. You have five minutes.